Balance The Karate Master

[Zeo]

DO NOT BE INTIMIDATED BY THE POST SIZE, YOU ARE NOT EXPECTED TO READ IT ALL AT ONCE.

Had to put that disclaimer up there, can't be scaring people off with my walls of text.

I'm just going to say it, Ein is one of the worst characters in this game. He's not rock bottom but he's definitely low on the totem pole and I wouldn't be surprised if he was bottom five. This topic gives you an invitation into my brain on how to take him out of the gutter and give us not only a complete character but one that doesn't have to struggle to contend with the rest of the cast and maybe, just maybe a character that strikes fear into the opponent when they see you pick him on the character select screen.

I originally was going to post this in the "How are you playing Ein?" thread but a post this large felt like it deserved it's own thread. Maybe we have enough Ein balance threads but there's never been one where you dip so far into my particular brain outside of my outdated frame chart thread.

What separates this from other Ein lists and threads is that I go in depth on the character and talk about moves and improvements that are well... a bit more realistic I'll say, rather than expanding on moves and things that would deviate from his character. Most of the things here are simple balance changes that wouldn't change the character's moveset but would change how he was played in a lot of ways.

This post is colossal and goes into great depth. You will NOT read it all in one setting. But if you are an Ein player, this is relevant to you and deserves a read and your thoughts. I separated it into categories. Just break them down one at a time. I didn't touch on every single move in his movelist but I touched on a lot of popular and key moves, the most relevant and the most used.

6P+K & 4K

I've been having a lot of trouble with Ein since this game came out, the character that's given me the most grief however? Ayane. Now, at first I was wondering what about her changed so much that she went from negligible to one of the biggest pains in my butt. She wasn't really a factor for me in vanilla but I used Ein in 4 and she wasn't really one there either. Then I switched to Akira, Hayate or Momiji and suddenly she's not a big problem for me. But then why was it so easy for me in 4? Then I remembered Ein's not the same as he was in 4 and he lost the 2 tools that made that matchup, and a lot more matchups, doable.

6P+K & 4K.

Ein vs Ayane

Ein vs Ayane was always a fairly even matchup and some would even say that it was one in Ein's favor. Ayane is an evasive character that does well up close, has tracking on basically everything, crushes all day and has a variety of tools to snag you at a distance, a fantastic whiff punisher basically. Ein however didn't have a huge problem with her because of two specific moves, 6P+K and 4K. Ayane can crush 46P, 236P despite it being a mid, and can get out of range to a point where 3P will whiff, come back in and punish. Ein was able to handle the matchup because at that range 6P+K was a fast and true mid that came out almost instantly and completely snuffed anything Ayane was trying to do at range. 4K even more so as when it was i13 like 3P, in situations where 3P would whiff 4K would completely negate anything she was trying to do, and in close range situations, unlike 3P, 4K was a true uncrushable mid.

Without these tools, Ayane beats Ein up close in speed, beating just about every mid and low he's got as well as crushing all his highs. What was a non-issue for him has become one of his worst matchups. This mostly applies to Hayate as well who completely negates Ein both up close and at a distance.

Matchups Affected

In fact, going off my DOA4 memory and applying it to 5U in it's current state, these 2 moves would completely revamp Ein's matchups across the board imo. Going off of whiff punishing with 6P+K which admittedly is an easier input to do on reaction to a whiff (as well as being uncrushable) and using 4K to negate pressure:

Characters he would rape:



Characters he would have favorable MUs against:



Characters he could contend with:



Characters that will still give him trouble but less so:

The Answer

You don't really need to do anything with these two moves. They can stay as unsafe as they are, just return them to their original speed. i14 6P+K and i13 4K. An unholdable stun if 6P+K hits a BT opponent would be nice but it's not really necessary. Give his P+K CB status as it's already 20 frames and no more of this i20 6P+K and i16 4K nonsense. It would completely change Ein's game from that alone.

Oh, giving 4K a little more height would be nice though. CH: 3P > 6KK

PPP, 3P, 236P, 66PK, 66F+P

PPP & Charge - I have so many problems with this move it's not even funny. First no mid from high for stun game, instead we have a meh knockback, it's unsafe and it has a retardedly slow charge. I have a lot of ideas for high to mid string ideas but I'm going to be realistic here. There are a few things you need to do to improve this move.

Make it safe. -4 to -6, it has little to no payoff outside of a potential wall blowback, being punishable is too much. Also reduce the 35 frame charge on the 3rd punch by around 8 frames and reduce the advantage on the Guard break by around 3 frames. A 27 frame GB that's +5 on block is reasonable and might actually land and not be mashed out of or held on reaction. Lastly this one's a bit unrealistic as you'd have to do it for all characters: make his PP a natural combo on NH.

3P - this move is fine, the only thing that should be changed it's it's status as a high mid. It needs to be a true uncrushable mid, period.

236P - Same as 3P, I'm fairly certain Hitomi's variant of this move is a true mid. Ein's on the other hand I have seen crushed first hand (particularly by Ayane). It should not be crushable. True mid status.

66P - Advantage on normal hit, period. I don't even care how much, just SOME. Doesn't have to be a stun just for the love of God some advantage. For the 1K variant as well.

66PK - This one has always been difficult for me, on one hand it's easy damage and overpowered, on the other hand it's actually making it useful outside of combos. My ideas for this move are either to make the kick cause a bound with a potential 66KKK or WR K > 6KK followup or simply give the knockdown a guaranteed 1K force tech. Also give that kick and all strings that end with it, tracking. I have no idea why it doesn't already have that.

That would balance things out between his finishers. A mid punch finisher with stun game, a low kick with knockdown or advantage, or a mid kick finisher with a guaranteed followup or guaranteed force tech for advantage.

66F+P - I know Ein's not "that" type of character but the damage is simply too pathetic. 10 more points of damage across the board. Normal, counter, hi counter, the whole nine yards. No one cares if you land this and it gives them a free wakeup kick guessing game as well. I want a free 1K force tech if the opponent doesn't immediately wake up after it lands. No more of this wakeup kick nonsense. Your opponent is basically rewarded with a mixup if you land this.

6KK, 3K, KK 3H+K & BT Followups

12 FRAME MID KICK

Now that that's gotten your attention, my ideas.

6K - i12, yes, i12. I've given this a lot of thought and before you say anything. It's balanced. 6K currently gives +5 on NH and a very weak and shakable +17 on CH (and that's without SEing) lastly with it's speed it would have the same knockdown and not the ideas I have for it that I'll get to in a bit. Now, here we have this i12 mid kick, all it gives is a knock down and it has a terrible CH stun, but it gives +5 on NH. It's not a move to use in stun, what this gives Ein, is an answer.

With 6K being i12, Ein has a reliable fast mid to throw out when being pressured, and on top of that, he has an i11 mid to rely on after things like 2P. They hold high expecting PKK? You get +5 of 6K on NH, they press buttons or try to crush? you get a 17 frame stun that is NOT getting slow escaped on reaction so you are getting P or 3P off of it for stun game. It completely changes his gameplan up close and does so without making him overpowered. If 6KK was kept the same as it was, shave a frame off the startup and you have a completely different Ein.

6KK - These followup ideas are more commonly discussed, having 6K being i12 would make either of these things a bit too strong, so these followups are being considered with 6K being i13 still in mind. The first being instead of a useless knockdown, A landed 6KK in stun or on NH/CH gives the +27 frame sit down stun you get if only the 2nd kick lands on NH. This forces respect, guarantees damage and will scare people into holding, as well as opening up a lot of other possibilities for mixups without making him a "mix-up heavy" character.

The 2nd idea is more commonly pitched, it gives the same bound stun as KK with a potential 6KKK or WR K > 6KK followup. Now some people may think this is easy damage but my idea is that NH 6KK would give the old knock down but CH/Stun 6KK would give the bound. Last idea would be to simply make it a natural combo and give him a guaranteed 1K force tech. Any of these would work, but if he didn't get either of these followup changes and we still get the same useless knockdown, I want i12. Period.

3K - A deeper stun on NH and a bit more on CH. That's really all I want. Not lift stun deep but around +17 for NH and +26 or so for CH would be nice.

KK - Sidestep tracking, that is all.

3H+K - I have issues with this move. First, why is this 32 frame mid kick which he can be hit out of at any time for Hi counter, holdable? It didn't used to be holdable in 2 and 3. It gives a useless knockdown on NH, and on CH it can only be followed up with an unreliable BT 5P or 5K for around 57-63 damage. Finally it only gives +2 on block. Now, an 11 frame low is wonderful, but why is it that the only thing I'm getting out of the deal is a quick low punch that's -1 on NH unless I want to use a 12 frame high kick launcher or a bunch of unreliable slow mid followups? There's not enough reward to landing this move. So what do I want?

1st, return it's unholdable status. 2nd, change it's properties on hit. NH I want guaranteed BT P. On CH I want a high enough launch for BT 1K6PK after the bounce. Now on block? I'm thinking +4 would be fair. It actually commands a bit of respect from Ein's followups that way.

BT 1P - 17 frame stun on CH is fine as it's only a BT low punch. But why is it -1 on NH? There's literally no point to press a button when Ein is BT because you can just let him throw out whatever and he'll either push you back or be at disadvantage. That or hold low and eat a few points of damage from his mid followups. Point being? This should be the same as 2P, +1 on NH. That way he can keep applying legit pressure. He spins his body a bit as well so I'd also like some tracking for those who'd try to get cute and sidestep him.

BT 7K - This move is Godlike. 17 frames, +6 GB on block, unholdable and it's a tech jump on top of it. I have no real way to improve it. I just needed to address how epic it was. It needs to be a standalone move as well, and I will be addressing that later.

BT 4P - So you have BT 7K, This unholdable 17 frame mid kick that tech jumps and is a +6 GB on block. Then you have... this... 22 frame no tracking holdable mid punch from backturn that gives a +4 GB on block. So... why are you using this ever? First point of advantage, it's useless as a 22 frame mid from BT, you're never using this so giving it more advantage is pointless. Shave about... 6 or so frames off of it and combined with 3H+K's +4 you've got a 12 frame mid punch that's +4 on block, perfectly reasonable.

7K, 1KK, 46K, 236K, 2H+K

7K - Useless. That's generally the word anyone who started in DOA4 or 5U will use to address this move. It was quite literally his worst move in DOA4 and while it's a launcher again now it's still probably one of his least useful moves and currently his 2nd worst launcher. Little did you know however, that in DOA2 and 3, this was his best launcher. It had better launch height and was *gasp* unholdable. We need to get back to that. As it stands it does the same damage and has a lower launch height than 33K (which is 5 frames faster), is ridiculous unsafe and so much recovery that you can barely combo off of it.

Now people today will probably look at this being unholdable again as cheap or broken, but my idea of balancing this move is simply to keep it's launch height. Right now all you can really get off of it is PPP, 6KK and 3P > 6KK or PP6PK higher in the threshold. This keeps the damage fair and gives you a safe launch option that is not only reliable but will scare people into holding mid kick more often, giving you more 33T opportunities. If it's not going to be unholdable it needs either more points of damage as a launcher, given more height or have the recovery reduced. As it is it's literally worse than Hayate's 8K and his 2nd most useless launcher. There is literally NO reason to use this over 33K at any point. We need to get back to our roots and give Ein back one of his best launchers.

1K - I'd really like to say give this +1 or +2 on NH but a frame advantage low that strings into a high, mid kick or mid punch? It's just a little too good in my opinion, do take it down to around -2 to 0 though, that'd be nice.

1KK - They did this move up right this time around, Gives a nice bounce in stun and you can chain 236P on lvl 1 threshold, 66KKK for lvl 2 and 4H+K > 1K6PK for lvl 3. What I don't agree with however is it still being unsafe on block. I'd like a 0 or -2 GB on block but that's asking for a bit too much. I think it should be safe however, around -4 to 6, buy no more or less than that.

46K - *Sigh*... this move. What was once slow and worthless in DOA2 and 3 was made one of his best and only blocking pressure tools in DOA4. It had crappy range that was inferior to Hayate's variant, but it was a whopping +5 on block allowing Ein to do basically anything he wanted. In DOA5U, both his and Hayate's variant of this move was toned down to a measly +1 on block. This effects Ein moreso however because his still has crappy range and he's slower than Hayate and can't pressure as well. Unlike Hayate you don't really have to respect Ein after he does this move. It needs more advantage, period. I really want it to have it's +5 from DOA4, but I would settle for... +3. I want this to be a +3 GB on block.

236K - Another move that was actually improved. It was negative on block in all DOAs except this one. It's actually the best it's ever been. It's always been holdable though it might have been unholdable in vanilla DOA2 but don't quote me on that. Here it's +1 on block but the problem is it's a 32 frame non tracking holdable mid kick that's only +1 on block. Even Hayate, the faster character's variant is +2. It should be +5. Honestly a move this slow should be +10 or more, but I'm being generous. +5 on block, it can stay holdable though.

2H+K - A true opener that he lost from DOA4. I want this to be a move to be feared again. Doesn't have to be a deep stun but something to scare the opponent if it lands. I want around a +15 trip stun on NH, something that you know, actually opens the opponent up. Same goes for all strings that end with this kick of course.

4P2KP, 4PP, 9PK, 7P, 8P

4P - It's been said before, buff the damage up to 23 so he's not getting beat out.

4PP - I'd actually like a deeper stun from this on NH and CH. Call me greedy but around +30 or so. Gives him a quick and meaty answer to steppers. They're highs anyway, those generally give the most stun.

4P2KP - This move is fine as is, NH, CH, the whole nine yards. What needs to be changed? The relaunch properties, especially in tag. When Ein had you at the wall in DOA3.1, you know what he could do? 4P2KP > 4K. Devastating. Point being this needs a higher relaunch. Not to the point of being overpowered but a legit wall combo or tag relaunch using this would definitely be nice. Yes, this also means no more of this flipping the opponent over in singles killing the combo.

9PK - This move is impractical and always has been, but at the very least I don't think players should be punished if it actually does hit the opponent. I could never see something like this giving advantage, but what it can be is deceptive. I want it to be a guard break that's neutral on block. Straight cold 0. Chances are most would think it's unsafe and for those that know it's neutral, Ein's got PKK for a good CH.

9P - Personally never liked this launcher. It's still better than 8P but this was always my least used launcher. Regardless it has it's place but it could still be improved as something is missing. Where's the relaunch properties? Hayate's 8P relaunches opponents, Ein's doesn't. Why's that? For one thing, after an explosion on scramble or a hit from a tiger on the show, he should be able to 9P > 1K6PK anything but heavyweights. Fix this.

7P - ...*Sigh*.. this move. After playing Akira seeing how amazing his guard breaks are, this move pisses me off. 30 frame HIGH PUNCH that gives +13 on NH, but wait! If it lands at TIP distance you get a free non close hit 46P which does nothing but bring your opponent closer to a wall, and on the off chance it sends them to a wall, you were better of just 33T'ing if your opponent was standing at the wall for 30 frames. Guess what? Gen Fu and Akira have faster guard breaks that guarantee damage. I want +22 from this move on block. I want guaranteed launch or stun game, period. No excuse. This move is unacceptable as it is now.

8P - This one people might disagree with but I don't like it as a bound as all. I would prefer the sit down stun it grants on NH to apply to CH. Now people might think I don't know what I'm talking about but I labbed this crap.

CH 3P > 8P > 66KKK does 74 Damage. CH 3P > 9P > 1K6PK does 68. Now, for those that think we would be losing out on damage, 8P does damage on it's own and is a +27 SDS which is +19 on fastest stagger escape. So he could go 9P, 33K or 4K for free if he landed this, I shouldn't even need to explain why this would give him so much more damage than it does as a bound. Scrap the bound and give this the sit down it always should have had. It would make you AFRAID of Ein if he landed a hit. Particularly of his mid punches even more so.

CH 3P > 6P > 8P > 33K > 3P > PP6PK.

Think about that combo, the fact that those last 3 parts are guaranteed after 8P, and the fact that if he swapped PP6PK out with 6KK he wouldn't even need to be at max threshold to do it.

*New Moves* 1K2K, 214H+K, Running H+K, Hitomi's 8P Series.

1K2K - I debated about this with Takeda a long time ago, It was taken from Hayate (Which he had in DOA4 as 1KK) but Ein still has his 1K unlike him. He lacks a good quick low to open his opponent up, I think this should be given to him. It may not have to be +10 but even +5 would be nice as it gives Ein some good breathing room and it would force you to respect 1K a bit more, opening opponents up to the mid followups.

214H+K - I've been talking about this one for the longest. It's what I feel 214K should have been. What we got was ok but this is what I truly wanted. I talked about BT 7K earlier which was essentially a variant of Hitomi's 236K except slower and a guard break with advantage. This is that same move stand alone.

This is Ein's spinning dragon kick. I was overzealous with it when I first pitched the idea and I've since toned it down. So this is my idea. 23 Frames, No Tracking, Unholdable, Tech Jumping, Mid Kick, +2 Guard Break on block. Sound fair? Good, brings me to my next idea.

Running H+K - A running variant of 214H+K and yet another get in tool for Ein. Same +2 GB as the original but 21 frames instead of 23.

Hitomi's 8P Series - For those that don't know Hitomi's 8P is the same as Ein's 4P. She's got the exact same strings as him except she gained the following in DOA5.

8P1KK
9P1K6PP
8P1K6PK
8P2K6P2K

Give these to Ein, that is all.

There's probably more for me to touch on but nothing else comes to mind, this post is 3 days in the making and when something comes up you can believe I'll post it up as well.

For those brave or patient enough to read through all of this madness I give you a gold star and salute you as a fellow Ein player or main. Don't be afraid to post your thoughts or critique on my ideas and changes. I don't need my main to be easy mode like he was in DOA2, I simply want a complete character with tools he deserves, and a few more he should have already had.

I salute you all. Good Vibrations.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Nice suggestions, with these additions Ein really could be a beast in 5U maybe that's why we haven't seen alot of Ein's recently I feel as though a few gave up on him to play Hitomi as she has alot more varied mix ups and moves in general where as Ein has none of that I'm still surprised he got any new moves at all haha.

To be honest, I'm quite the fan of 8P giving a bound however, I'm open to the idea of 8P being a SDS too. And I'm completely on board with the new move ideas and 6KK being bond on critical hit as well as 9P relaunching it's always bugged me that 9P never relaunched, and personally I definitely agree to 6P+K returning to DOA4 status and P+K being CB as a Hayabusa player I'm used to P+K being CB so this would be perfect for me.

Also, 6P+K would actually be a worthy whiff punisher again as much as I like 46P I feel it's unreliable (especially with 5U's buffering and xbox dpads lol) 6P+K is a straight simple input and there's no fear of it accidentally coming out as something else entirely.

46P for me often comes out as 236P despite only touching 4, 6 and P very frustrating.

 

[SilverForte]

The one biggest thing that needs to change imo is 6 p+k needs to be i14 again. I agree with your other changes for the most part but this is the biggest one. Unfortunately, I do not see Ein being changed at all, the last chance I think for changes is when the game is patched for the arcade version.

 

[JayceeChris]

Great article. These great ideas would make him a beast in this game but I think it's expecting a bit too much.

I don't know what you think about this but I feel like in 5U, depending of the match-up Ein cannot rely on only one whiff punisher. He has to choose between 4K, 6P+K, 46P and i'll also say 3KK because it gives juggle and has good speed. IMO it's a real pain to deal with these moves.
It would help so much if 6P+K returns to 14 frames (and still giving crumple stun on hit).

I like the idea of 6K being i12. It would be a good move to uses against characters like Ayane or Momiji having a 12 frames 2P and definitely a good to move answer with.
Talking about answer, I really think he needs his BT 1P to be his regular 1P.
With this addition he would have a solid and fast answer against characters like Bayman, Christie or Hayate who can use sidestep or tank roll pretty easily against Ein.

About 4PP strings
I Think this move is good but it lacks something really solid like first hit being i12 or 23 dmg as you mentioned. I also think it would be good if the second hit was middle.

I agree with your thoughts on 8P. It should definitely be a SDS on CH and concerning new moves, I personally don't think he needs a lot at the exception of DOA4 Hayate's 1KK and add him 66P string into 4P2K.

 

[TakedaZX]

Well done Zeo-san.

Most of the stuff we've been over a few times but I'll cut to the chase.

1. 8P - I like 8P as it is now. The thing is, I still use 9P over it because since I can control the BT situation well and get my juggles out. You guys can have whatever you like but I'm fine with it staying the same.
2. 4K
   • NH - 6KK
   • CH - 3P, 6KK
   • HCH/High Threshold - 4H+K, 1K6PK or 3P, PP6PK
   • Stun to Launch - 6KK
3. 2H+K - It should definitely be as it was in DOA4. The stun it has now on CH is what it was in DOA4. He should get that back on NH and either keep the CH+ stun he has now or get the knockdown into the instant ground pressure. I think Ryu, Hayate, JL, and Brad had properties that were similar. Frankly for slow sweeps, they should all behave this way.
4. Knockdowns - The knockdowns you asked for him to get guaranteed forced techs on... I hear you on that but it's probably better to let the opponent have that small guessing game. By that I mean, the knockdown should be treated like 4K's knockdown in DOA4 and sorta how 2H+K's knockdown is treated right now. If you don't tech, I get a free 1K, if you do tech, you have to deal with my 1K mix-ups unless I free cancelled (which is still a mix-up).
   
   Makes it possible for them to make it out and then they won't cry for anything more than "I have to guess after I fucked up and got knocked on the ground, and the guessing game is not in my favor".
5. 1K2K has always bugged me... I think he really should have it but I usually imagined that it'd not be one of his actual strings and more so something for a stance/feint mix-up. Regardless, I think this deserves to be there like you said.
   
6. 8K/1KK being a guard break? Hell yea and -2 is definitely fair.
   
   The point of the guard break should not be to give him advantage/pressure. It shouldn't even be to give him safety. It should be to give him space, but the safety is welcomed. So that guard break should push the opponent a good distance away so that he'll have some breathing room to back off.
   
7. I still think that for new moves he definitely deserves 4P2KK, 6K2K, and 3K2K.
   • 4P2KK - 4P2KK would just be the 1KK variant of hitomi's 8P series. As great as it would be to have the full series for Ein, I don't think that they're as necessary for him. Another reason is 8PK6PK is kind of a unique juggle for her. Just like she can't CB! 8K, 4H+K, 1K6PK, he shouldn't have the whole 8PK6PK deal. That's my opinion. If you want 4P2KK, I think that's definitely ok because 1KK is actually important to him. If you wan tracking, 4P2K2K and then he's keeping his unique moves while letting her keep her unique string and juggle.
   • 6K2K - Just finishing off with a +5 on NH 1K. Should be 1K's CH+ stun properties as well.
   • 3K2K - Goes in 2H+K. Nothing special here.
8. 3K
   • Honestly I think you're being to nice on this one, it shouldbe close to as deadly as it was in DOA4, it's just in DOA4 it was deadly because it was deep but you lost 3KK as an option because of the SD stun push back. Here's my idea.
     • NH - +15 (Highest SE)
     • CH - +15 (Highest SE, this is how it is now)
     • HCH/In stun - +28 (Highest SE, lift stun or guts stun like NH 6PP for Hayate. The deal here is that the stun will give unholdable frames so that 3KK will 2 in 1 but be deep if you decided to not take the guaranteed damage so that you can go for a better launcher like WR K, 4K, 33K, etc)
     • In the end, the move works like 4K6K for Hayate. If it's in stun and you put it out there, it will 2 in 1. This will please those who like to abuse 3KK and please those who like to gamble for more damage in the stun game.
9. 7K - I was talking to Ten about this yesterday.
   

   I don't like what TN does about the launchers in this game. In DOA4 the situations kind of made sense. Hayate for example. 33K, 9K, 8K (4.0). Basically 33K had the sorriest launch height of the three but the best speed so it had smaller juggles. (33K, 7K on NH and stun to launch, 33KK on CH, PP6PK on HCH and high threshold). 9K was two frames slower so it was PP6PK at worst which was stun to launch. Max threshold was 8p, pp6pk. 8K for DOA4.0 was a regular launcher and gave a great launch height. I'll strip my xbox of the patch to see what the possibilties were sometime soon.

   Your idea makes sense. Mine is more simplistic (increase the 7K launch height). As long as it doesn't stay the same or doesn't go back to DOA4 style, I'm game.
10. Advanced Holds - He doesn't need them but neither does Hayate. An extra set of mid holds like Hitomi's wouldn't hurt but they aren't really necessary.

 

[Zeo]

Great article. These great ideas would make him a beast in this game but I think it's expecting a bit too much.

I don't know what you think about this but I feel like in 5U, depending of the match-up Ein cannot rely on only one whiff punisher. He has to choose between 4K, 6P+K, 46P and i'll also say 3KK because it gives juggle and has good speed. IMO it's a real pain to deal with these moves.
It would help so much if 6P+K returns to 14 frames (and still giving crumple stun on hit).

I like the idea of 6K being i12. It would be a good move to uses against characters like Ayane or Momiji having a 12 frames 2P and definitely a good to move answer with.
Talking about answer, I really think he needs his BT 1P to be his regular 1P.
With this addition he would have a solid and fast answer against characters like Bayman, Christie or Hayate who can use sidestep or tank roll pretty easily against Ein.

About 4PP strings
I Think this move is good but it lacks something really solid like first hit being i12 or 23 dmg as you mentioned. I also think it would be good if the second hit was middle.

I agree with your thoughts on 8P. It should definitely be a SDS on CH and concerning new moves, I personally don't think he needs a lot at the exception of DOA4 Hayate's 1KK and add him 66P string into 4P2K.

Just a few of these things would make Ein so much better of a character, it's unrealistic that he'd get all or even half of these changes but anything's possible and if he got any of them it would show that Team Ninja is listening.

1. Ein players definitely gravitated more toward 6P+K than anything else for whiff punishing in 4, it's more of a question of what to use now and there are instances where 46P or 236P will come out as one or the other. He definitely needs his answer back, anyone who played Ein can agree on that.

2. 4PP's 2nd hit being a mid? Something like that never came to mid, I don't know how I feel about that but it's definitely an interesting idea and would catch steppers with high crushing followups.

3. 1K2K he definitely needs. As for any other new moves like I said the most needed is 214H+K, I really just don't get why a move that good is limited to BT for a character that never wants to be at BT. It's too good of a move to be wasted. He doesn't need to be Hitomi but it doesn't have the same properties as Hitomi's.

Well done Zeo-san.

8P - I like 8P as it is now. The thing is, I still use 9P over it because since I can control the BT situation well and get my juggles out. You guys can have whatever you like but I'm fine with it staying the same.

The fact that you still opt to pick that launcher over 8P only attests to how much it needs to be improved. Like I said before 8P being a sit down would make it a factor and make you really afraid not to hold in stun situations as it guarantees launchers. And for a character like Ein who can do optimal launchers without even being at threshold, that's a very scary thing. As it is now it's mostly just another mediocre mid punch launch option.

This is basically the type of move you don't care about now, but if it was implemented you'd realize just how much of a Godsend it really is.

1. 4K
   • NH - 6KK
   • CH - 3P, 6KK
   • HCH/High Threshold - 4H+K, 1K6PK or 3P, PP6PK
   • Stun to Launch - 6KK

Pretty much what I want.

Knockdowns - The knockdowns you asked for him to get guaranteed forced techs on... I hear you on that but it's probably better to let the opponent have that small guessing game. By that I mean, the knockdown should be treated like 4K's knockdown in DOA4 and sorta how 2H+K's knockdown is treated right now. If you don't tech, I get a free 1K, if you do tech, you have to deal with my 1K mix-ups unless I free cancelled (which is still a mix-up).

Makes it possible for them to make it out and then they won't cry for anything more than "I have to guess after I fucked up and got knocked on the ground, and the guessing game is not in my favor".

That's mostly what I want anyways so that's fine by me. An opponent that is forced to wake up immediately after said move is landed, if they try to wakeup kick, 1K forces them up, if they tech right up they deal with the mixup as you said. Actually makes getting knocked down by Ein in those situations beneficial to him, and that's all I'm really asking for.

8K/1KK being a guard break? Hell yea and -2 is definitely fair.

The point of the guard break should not be to give him advantage/pressure. It shouldn't even be to give him safety. It should be to give him space, but the safety is welcomed. So that guard break should push the opponent a good distance away so that he'll have some breathing room to back off.

At heart, I would love that. I never imagined it being a GB that's that safe, just imagined it being safe period. But that would be really nice I admit.

I still think that for new moves he definitely deserves 4P2KK, 6K2K, and 3K2K.

• 4P2KK - 4P2KK would just be the 1KK variant of hitomi's 8P series. As great as it would be to have the full series for Ein, I don't think that they're as necessary for him. Another reason is 8PK6PK is kind of a unique juggle for her. Just like she can't CB! 8K, 4H+K, 1K6PK, he shouldn't have the whole 8PK6PK deal. That's my opinion. If you want 4P2KK, I think that's definitely ok because 1KK is actually important to him. If you wan tracking, 4P2K2K and then he's keeping his unique moves while letting her keep her unique string and juggle.
• 6K2K - Just finishing off with a +5 on NH 1K. Should be 1K's CH+ stun properties as well.
• 3K2K - Goes in 2H+K. Nothing special here.

4P2KK is the most important string for him to have, that I agree with. While I'm not particularly married to 4P2K6PK for Ein, the idea of 4P2K6PP resonates with me, I would really like that particular string for Ein as well as 4P2K6P2K which I neglected to put in my post.

As for your other moves, 6K2K would be a nice addition, but I think it'd be a little too good if 6K was made i12. A 12 frame mid kick that's +5 on NH leading into a low that's also +5 on NH and stuns on counter hit? 3K2K is fine though, gives another low option and God knows Ein needs them.

3K

• Honestly I think you're being to nice on this one, it shouldbe close to as deadly as it was in DOA4, it's just in DOA4 it was deadly because it was deep but you lost 3KK as an option because of the SD stun push back. Here's my idea.
  • NH - +15 (Highest SE)
  • CH - +15 (Highest SE, this is how it is now)
  • HCH/In stun - +28 (Highest SE, lift stun or guts stun like NH 6PP for Hayate. The deal here is that the stun will give unholdable frames so that 3KK will 2 in 1 but be deep if you decided to not take the guaranteed damage so that you can go for a better launcher like WR K, 4K, 33K, etc)
  • In the end, the move works like 4K6K for Hayate. If it's in stun and you put it out there, it will 2 in 1. This will please those who like to abuse 3KK and please those who like to gamble for more damage in the stun game.

That sounds scary good, I agree with HCH and CH but NH? That's a 15 frame mid kick that's essentially +23 on NH, that's... crazy. Still, I can't argue with it being a 2-in-1 I think it always should have been that.

• 7K - I was talking to Ten about this yesterday.
  
  Your idea makes sense. Mine is more simplistic (increase the 7K launch height). As long as it doesn't stay the same or doesn't go back to DOA4 style, I'm game.

• Advanced Holds - He doesn't need them but neither does Hayate. An extra set of mid holds like Hitomi's wouldn't hurt but they aren't really necessary.

Increasing 7K's launch height is a nice idea but it'll still be rare to opt using that over WR K because of the height or 33K due to it being faster and less telegraphed. I stand by it being unholdable. I just think that's what a move like that needs to be respected. Also it needs to do more damage in any situation, period.

As for advanced holds. I agree he doesn't need them, they'd be nice though. Hitomi and Hayate's meaty adv holds are the mid kick ones. I think it'd be fitting to give Ein a really good mid punch one. Something leading into a ground bounce or bound for BnB possibilities, but we've touched on this before.

The one biggest thing that needs to change imo is 6 p+k needs to be i14 again. I agree with your other changes for the most part but this is the biggest one. Unfortunately, I do not see Ein being changed at all, the last chance I think for changes is when the game is patched for the arcade version.

Funny you mention that, I was just thinking, wondering when the next balance patch would be because you know there'll be one. Then I remembered there's practically one guaranteed after DOA5UA comes out. New character and all that, there will be some balance changes for certain and there's no way there will be content exclusive to an arcade version of a game that's primarily played on consoles.

On top of that, you know Team Ninja listens to their japanese playerbase. Well, Ein's the 2nd worst character on their tier list and while the list as a whole is laughably inaccurate, that particular placement isn't too far from the truth. I imagine TN will give Ein some sort of buff when the time comes. But we also have to do our part to urge them to improve him. Ein's not DOA5 1.00 Hayate or anything tragedy level like that, but he's still pretty bad. I in particular might start tweeting them. #BuffEin is real.

 

[TakedaZX]

The fact that you still opt to pick that launcher over 8P only attests to how much it needs to be improved. Like I said before 8P being a sit down would make it a factor and make you really afraid not to hold in stun situations as it guarantees launchers. And for a character like Ein who can do optimal launchers without even being at threshold, that's a very scary thing. As it is now it's mostly just another mediocre mid punch launch option.

This is basically the type of move you don't care about now, but if it was implemented you'd realize just how much of a Godsend it really is.

You have me mistaken. Frankly I recognize that 8P is very superior to 9P. The point is I don't care for its appearance. 9P looks a lot cooler and it's faster, so I'm like... why not? As long as it still bounds at max threshold, I'm in though. That means if someone uses it and they make a mistake, they have a chance to recover and 66KKK or WR K, 6KK.

At heart, I would love that. I never imagined it being a GB that's that safe, just imagined it being safe period. But that would be really nice I admit.

Yep, Safe poke and gets the opponent off of you. Something that works very well and would look very appealing.

As for your other moves, 6K2K would be a nice addition, but I think it'd be a little too good if 6K was made i12. A 12 frame mid kick that's +5 on NH leading into a low that's also +5 on NH and stuns on counter hit? 3K2K is fine though, gives another low option and God knows Ein needs them.

I left a detail out. 6K2K would push back sorta like a 2P in stun giving him space, but only enough to demand respect with his linear long ranged moves. (46P, 236P, 4K). On CH+ and In stun it's gunna work the same as 1K would in the stun game. Enough push back for only 4K to really work.

That sounds scary good, I agree with HCH and CH but NH? That's a 15 frame mid kick that's essentially +23 on NH, that's... crazy. Still, I can't argue with it being a 2-in-1 I think it always should have been that.

14i mid kick. In DOA4, besides the fact that 3KK wasn't viable in stun, 3K was a deadly kick.

It stunned like it stuns on CH now on NH and it gave a sitdown stun that was deep that forced you to deal with an unSEable 4K and the mix-up between an unSEable 3P or a mix-up to the delayed hold out of stun with dash in WR K or Dash in 9P.

Giving it the properties I said will help with his guaranteed damage factor. The launcher is pretty low and the best you can get off of it is 3P, 6KK at max threshold. Giving it that option isn't a big deal but giving it the extra stun worth will help his neutral game greatly. Frankly I think that on CH he should have the 2 in 1 as well so that when you catch someone whacking buttons, you'll get the better stun as well.

Increasing 7K's launch height is a nice idea but it'll still be rare to opt using that over WR K because of the height or 33K due to it being faster and less telegraphed. I stand by it being unholdable. I just think that's what a move like that needs to be respected. Also it needs to do more damage in any situation, period.

Agreed. I want it to do more damage than 33K, less than WR K, but match WR K's possibilities.

As for advanced holds. I agree he doesn't need them, they'd be nice though. Hitomi and Hayate's meaty adv holds are the mid kick ones. I think it'd be fitting to give Ein a really good mid punch one. Something leading into a ground bounce or bound for BnB possibilities, but we've touched on this before.

The problem with the mid punch one is that while it'd be good, for the most part mid kick is more reliable. Why? It has a more consistent point in time that it's gunna be caught: The wake up game. That's why Hitomi's and Hayate's work so well because aside from the stand up game, this makes the ground game easier for them.

With the punch hold, yea he might have a better time against Helena/Christie but it won't be as consistent of a time. The wake up game only has 4 options. Mid kick, Low kick, Special Wake up (Character Specific), or Nothing. See what I mean? This is why I forsee both mid punch and mid kick. For mid punches it'd basically be a straight damage buff but for mid kicks it'd be a chance to make someone pay for trying to put a mid kick on the board, then you can drop 236K on them all day.

 

[Tenryuga]

Don't be too greedy on the 4PP stun. Unlike most other characters that get a stun game or frame advantage off landing tracking move get strings that lead into launchers off a 13 frame high which might be the fastest tracking move in the game. 4PPP > 6KK is 70 because somebody decided to step and not hold mid P. I dunno the numbers for 4P2KP but I'd say they are around the same. If they do start holding it we can start capitalizing by mixing it up and using 99dmg grab. BTW that grab needs to be like 105 on hi counter.

The restoration of 6P+K and 4K are a given. Just these two alone would drastically improve his ability to punish people at range.

I still want a tracking 15i 1P as well as a string with a delayable mid that stuns directly after PP. Ein is probably the only character in the game other than Hitomi where his Mid P isn't included in his strings in some form.

236K - +3 or more.

46K - +3 or more.

Since Ein is slow, has poor tracking and mixup he should get frame advantage that allows him to utilize his slower tracking moves or at least 4P. I suggest a new 10 or 12i Grab: 236T. This will be like Eliots and Gen Fu's advantage grabs where it does massive damage (45 - 55) points and grants +10. This would greatly help his performance in close quarters without making him godlike there in addition to the 4P string changes.

I also think its about time Ein got some new moves. We have quite a few slots for commands that haven't been used up yet. It's honestly not entirely necessary if his core moveset is buffed but it would be nice. Off the top of my head we dont have a 8H+K, 6H+K, 3P+K and I dunno what else.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

I agree with the empty slots, the fact there isn't a 4T really bugs me. Why did they move his 4T? 6T used to be his 4T and 66T was his 6T. I'd prefer they go back the that or give him a new 4T something similar to Hitomi's 5T would be nice.

Btw Tenryuga, Ein does indeed have a 6H+K. He has 6H+KKK and 6H+KK4K

And am I the only one who feels like he could do well with a punch mix up on 66KKK? ideally something like Hitomi's 66KKP it would be a nice launcher and more guaranteed damage which Ein definitely needs. Hell, even if it was his 9P we'd still be able to BT 7K or BT 2K6PK from it.

 

[Tenryuga]

Lmao 6H+K sucks so much balls I forgot it existed.

 

[SilverForte]

6 h+k is his fastest high launcher I think.

 

[Zeo]

6H+K is worthless.

6 h+k is his fastest high launcher I think.

Nope. 4H+K is his fastest high launcher at i14 and does more launch and juggle damage than 6H+K at any threshold. 6H+K and it's strings are basically just worthless and should never be used in any situation ever.

Don't be too greedy on the 4PP stun. Unlike most other characters that get a stun game or frame advantage off landing tracking move get strings that lead into launchers off a 13 frame high which might be the fastest tracking move in the game. 4PPP > 6KK is 70 because somebody decided to step and not hold mid P. I dunno the numbers for 4P2KP but I'd say they are around the same. If they do start holding it we can start capitalizing by mixing it up and using 99dmg grab. BTW that grab needs to be like 105 on hi counter.

He's got a quick tracking move but the problem is you typically aren't stepping Ein because he has nothing to pressure you to the point of stepping, you can generally just beat him out. That being said, a high i13 tracking move with a stun might seem good but 2 problems.

1: It's range is poop. 2: It's a string of highs. I've literally had cases where at "Get Ready, Right!" against Helena and Hayate, I would start the match off as close as possible and throw out 4PP, both characters would immediately step and 4P would whiff against them both, Helena would then crush the 2nd high with SS K and Hayate would hit Ein with 8P+KP before the 2nd came out. Point is it's not that reliable of a tracking move and it's a crushable high. There should be a pretty nice payoff if it hits, especially for a character that isn't exactly the best at snuffing opponents that like to step. Nevermind the fact that it strings into an unsafe mid punch or a slow unsafe low.

Standing by around a +30 stun on the 2nd hit. Definitely agree on a few more points for 33T on Hi counter though. Hm... it could stay as it is however, if he got Hitomi's 8PPK with his 1KK finisher if it was made safe. It would give him a tracking option into a safe mid that also ground bounces just like 4PPP.

I still want a tracking 15i 1P as well as a string with a delayable mid that stuns directly after PP. Ein is probably the only character in the game other than Hitomi where his Mid P isn't included in his strings in some form.

236K - +3 or more.

My personal dream for this move? +10 Guard Break. I'm a reasonable guy though. +5 is just fine.

46K - +3 or more.

Agreed. +3 is good.

Since Ein is slow, has poor tracking and mixup he should get frame advantage that allows him to utilize his slower tracking moves or at least 4P. I suggest a new 10 or 12i Grab: 236T. This will be like Eliots and Gen Fu's advantage grabs where it does massive damage (45 - 55) points and grants +10. This would greatly help his performance in close quarters without making him godlike there in addition to the 4P string changes.

I'm open to the idea but I feel this would just make him a better Hitomi. He definitely has a speed issue but I feel like the easiest way to remedy this would be to just make 6K i12. He doesn't exactly need help in the throw game area with the insane 33T but this would still be a welcome addition. Not to help him in the speed area though.

I also think its about time Ein got some new moves. We have quite a few slots for commands that haven't been used up yet. It's honestly not entirely necessary if his core moveset is buffed but it would be nice. Off the top of my head we dont have a 8H+K, 6H+K, 3P+K and I dunno what else.

I've made my stance on this already. New moves would be nice but we only really think about that because unlike previous games, his current moveset isn't effective enough to take him far in this game. Simply improving his moveset as you said would be more than enough to make him a contender in this game. Ein's such a basic character that something as simple as a change of properties to his moves can make him Godmode easymode or garbage.

Because he lacks effectiveness in his current tools, we consider expanding his moveset to compensate for that. It's not exactly needed but I'm open to the idea as well. More mixups, etc etc but I've also had this discussion in the past where we came to the conclusion that he would just be a better Hitomi. Though.. she's a better Ein right now so I can't say it wouldn't be fair. On a last note no 3P+K, I can see too many annoying instances where it would overlap with 33P+K and the last thing I'd want is to be in someone's face and whiff that ridiculously unsafe power launcher.

I agree with the empty slots, the fact there isn't a 4T really bugs me. Why did they move his 4T? 6T used to be his 4T and 66T was his 6T. I'd prefer they go back the that or give him a new 4T something similar to Hitomi's 5T would be nice.

Btw Tenryuga, Ein does indeed have a 6H+K. He has 6H+KKK and 6H+KK4K

And am I the only one who feels like he could do well with a punch mix up on 66KKK? ideally something like Hitomi's 66KKP it would be a nice launcher and more guaranteed damage which Ein definitely needs. Hell, even if it was his 9P we'd still be able to BT 7K or BT 2K6PK from it.

Don't really see the need for a 4T but a throw that pushes the opponent away from Ein would be nice as the mid range game is his forte and all his throws leave the opponent close to him.

Also I talked about 66KKK in the past too and a punch followup would be worthless because if the first hit of 66KKK lands the opponent is immediatly launched into the air, the rest is a natural combo. Only use the punch followup would have is if it was safe on block if the whole thing gets blocked.

 

[Tenryuga]

I hear you Zeo. I think all of us should compose a final list of changes that we can tweet to TN that is backed by good reasons. So far the general consensus seems to be:

6P+K i14
4K i13
Buffed 4P and 4P strings
Increased 66T damage (?)
Safe 1KK that has pushback (?)
Tracking 15i 1P
Tracking 66PK and variants
Tracking KK
1K2K

Slightly better 236K - I would settle for +2 since just that is enough to make him beat 9 frame jabbers. Move is GDLK as is with it launching on CH and how it can snuff mid AND low wakeups.

Better 46K - This though needs more advantage. +3 or more so his tracking becomes viable. Dunno why it wasn't left at +5.

Are the following agreed upon?

12i 6K - If such has to happen then I propose 6KK be safe or semi-safe instead of a bound. It can have takedas low too if that's not overkill.

OR

13i 6K - 6KK remains unsafe but is granted bound status and has Takeda's low option.

Standalone BT 7K / running BT 7K - I like this especially if it is something Ein can use to get in.

What I want to hear opinions on:

A reliable stunning mid in P strings.

6P. Correct me if I am wrong but Christie has a 14(?) frame 9P that is neutral on block? Give me +1-2 at most on this if she can get that.

Improved 2H+K to allow stun game entry if not SE'd fast enough.

A move that allows Ein to get in other than 1K and 46P. 66K is flawed and 236p is unsafe.

 

[Zeo]

Gonna respond a bit differently to the post this time but.

I hear you Zeo. I think all of us should compose a final list of changes that we can tweet to TN that is backed by good reasons. So far the general consensus seems to be:

6P+K i14
Yes.
4K i13
Yes.
Buffed 4P and 4P strings
Yes.
Increased 66T damage (?)
Yes. 5-10 more points to be exact.
Safe 1KK that has pushback (?)
Yes.
Tracking 15i 1P
Kind of on the fence but this could be his BT 1P standalone perhaps.
Tracking 66PK and variants
Yes.
Tracking KK
Yes.
1K2K
Yes.

Slightly better 236K - I would settle for +2 since just that is enough to make him beat 9 frame jabbers. Move is GDLK as is with it launching on CH and how it can snuff mid AND low wakeups.

I can accept +2 simply because it creates equality with Hayate, but I would prefer a meaty +3. However, I'd settle for +2 simply because it's something we could all agree on.

Better 46K - This though needs more advantage. +3 or more so his tracking becomes viable. Dunno why it wasn't left at +5.

Me either. +3 is perfect.

Are the following agreed upon?

Yep, pretty much. It'd be nice to get a few more opinions.

12i 6K - If such has to happen then I propose 6KK be safe or semi-safe instead of a bound. It can have takedas low too if that's not overkill.

OR

13i 6K - 6KK remains unsafe but is granted bound status and has Takeda's low option.

Difficult decision but it depends on the other tools, if Ein is granted more overall advantage and ways to get in, then the i13 isn't as necessary. If this is one of the only things changed however, he needs the speed as a way to get in....

Going to swallow my personal wants and go with the i13 with better followups.

Standalone BT 7K / running BT 7K - I like this especially if it is something Ein can use to get in.

God yes. This is probably the 2nd most important new move for him to get. Only 2nd to 1K2K.

What I want to hear opinions on:

A reliable stunning mid in P strings.

6P. Correct me if I am wrong but Christie has a 14(?) frame 9P that is neutral on block? Give me +1-2 at most on this if she can get that.

Improved 2H+K to allow stun game entry if not SE'd fast enough.

A move that allows Ein to get in other than 1K and 46P. 66K is flawed and 236p is unsafe.

As for those last 3...

6P - Christie has a high that gives the exact same stun and is neutral on block. I'd say a meaty +1 GB or just +1 at all would be a nice addition for Ein. This isn't really a practical move out of stun at the moment.

2H+K - Yes. Nothing else really needed to say.

I think with the rest of the improvements listed, Ein will be more or less covered when it comes to getting in.

Alright calling all Ein players, we need your input on the things Ten mentioned so we can compile a list of things to send Team Ninja. If we're lucky we can get a top player onboard and try to get one of them to pitch to TN. They're more likely to listen to one of the vets.

 

[SilverForte]

Everything Ten said makes sense, I approve.

 

[Nereus]

I agree on the tracking situation, he really doesn't have that "OMG" type of fear to make ppl sidestep at all. IMO he needs improvement on the Oki game. And for the love of god do something w/ his 33T. There has been instances to where im literally looking at my stick ONLY just to do the move, and it still doesn't come out.

 

[JayceeChris]

Hey guys an idea just came to my mind.
What do you think if they increase his H+K speed to 15 frames and add him his SS P as a mid punch follow up ? With this add he will have a fast tracking move that is safe on block against most characters and a solid follow up to create some mix-ups. It's seems like a good idea to me but I would like to have your thoughts on this.

 

[Nereus]

Hey guys an idea just came to my mind.
What do you think if they increase his H+K speed to 15 frames and add him his SS P as a mid punch follow up ? With this add he will have a fast tracking move that is safe on block against most characters and a solid follow up to create some mix-ups. It's seems like a good idea to me but I would like to have your thoughts on this.

hmmm... i like that idea. He doesn't really have any mid tracking moves w/ reliable startups.... it would help him alot.

 

[Tenryuga]

Ein has no mid tracking at all. I'll take any mid I can get.

 

[Nereus]

Ein has no mid tracking at all. I'll take any mid I can get.

H+K is a tracking mid... just to damn slow. If you meant RELIABLE tracking mid (most likely you did) then yeah... he has none lolol