DOA5U The usefulness of 214PP as a wall splat

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Introduction
Hi fellow Momiji players! :)
I have created this topic to share my personal insights of the importance of Momiji’s 214PP. While this move does not provide much use in open space, it is in my opinion her best opening move for wall combos.
Why is this so? 214PP is important at the wall for several reasons, which are listed in the section below.

Advantages of 214PP at the wall
1) If 214P hits the opponent, it will cause them to go in a sit-down stun. The result is that the second P is guaranteed to hit, which provides a wall splat. So the main advantage is that you can strike the opponent twice for the risk of only being held once, before slamming them against the wall.

2) In case 214PP gets blocked, there’s not much to worry. 214PP on block puts Momiji at -3, which means that move is safe to utilize and cannot be punished.
3) The recovery frames of 214PP equal 27 frames. This is not bad, and provides an opportunity to follow up with a maximum damage wall combo! ;)

Wall combos involving 214PP
Now that we’re on the subject of wall combos, allow me to share to you the best damaging combos after the 214PP wall splat:


- Alpha 152: 214PP (W!), 6P+K, 6PKKP+K
- Super Lightweights to Middleweights: 214PP (W!), 6P+K, 6PKKK
- Super Heavyweights: 214PP (W!), 6PKKK

Disadvantages of 214PP
I have yet to admit, while 214PP is a reliable wall splat, that this move carries some disadvantages as well:

1) 214PP does not track, thus if 214P gets blocked, the second punch can be easily sidestepped.

2) 214PP has 23 start-up frames, which is pretty slow. When fighting against speedy characters, such as Kasumi, Ayane, Christie or Helena, it a risk to pull off this move because there’s a high chance you will get counter hit. There is obviously less of a risk of getting counter hit by slower characters like Bass, Bayman or Rachel. If you still cannot afford taking those risks, I would recommend going with a faster wall splat, such as H+K (12 start-up frames).

Solution to the second disadvantage of 214PP
While there is no solution for the first disadvantage, there is a pretty straightforward one for the second disadvantage.

Before pulling off 214PP as a wall splat, it is recommended that you get a fast initial stun on your opponent. Quick stun openers of Momiji are:

1) CH 3P (13 start-up frames, -9 on block). Note that 3P is unsafe on block, but in my personal offline experience it rarely gets throw punished, because it is hard to react to and the fact that Momiji has delayable follow-ups makes it risky for the opponent to attempt a throw punish.
Thus, your wall splat setup would be: CH 3P, 214PP (W!), …

or

2) 6P+K (stuns on NH, 15 start-up frames, -3 on block). A quick high elbow which is safe and gives a stun on NH. On CH it causes a different type of stun which causes your opponent to fall to the ground. If that is the case, follow up with 3P to pop them back up, so your setup would be: CH 6P+K, 3P, 214PP, …

Demonstrating the superiority of 214PP compared to other wall splats
While you may agree or disagree with me of using 214PP as a wall splat, allow me to explain why I think this is her best wall splat compared to other setups.

214PP isn't her only reliable wall splat, other options include 6PP, 3PP, H+K and as @Corza suggested: 214PP+K, BT 4K. I will compare each example with 214PP.

So if we compare 214PP to 6PP, 214PP is superior in the sense that it is safe on block, whereas 6PP is unsafe on block (-11). Both have equal recovery frames too so that cancels each other out.

The next comparison, which involves 3PP. Both moves are equally safe on block (-3). I still prefer 214PP to 3PP as the opponent has two opportunities to hold Momiji when she uses 3PP, instead of 214PP where the opponent has only one opportunity to hold the opponent.

Next up is one of Momiji's 12 frame high kicks, H+K. Also a good wall splat, but this move is semi-unsafe (-7), and is a high so can be ducked.

@Corza did the suggestion of using the setup 214PP+K, BT 4K as a wall splat where BT 4K would function as a wall splat if 214PP+K hits without the opponent slow escaping. However, 214PP+K is unsafe on block, as this move results in having you your back turned torwards your opponent (-6). A person would only need to use an i5 neutral throw on your back in order to punish you. I consider this setup very risky at high level play, but definitely useful if you expect not to get punished.

Conclusion

I have shared my thoughts on why I think Momiji’s 214PP is very important in anyone’s move arsenal. The main advantages were the ’2-in-1’ effect, the safety of this move and the relatively short recovery frames. Therefore, I recommend every Momiji player to implement this move in their playstyle.
I appreciate anyone taking the time to read this. Feel free to share your own thoughts on this matter if you’d like to, so we can discuss together and all improve our Momiji!
:momiji:
 
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Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'd like to add some pros and cons to this:
214PP can counter a wake up kick if you time it right, so you can guarantee your success. Neat!
Also, you can use it on tech rolling opponents. After a 6H+K, 3KP8PK, 8P, 3P4P, 6PKP setup 214P becomes unholdable.

I didn't say you need to use BT 4K. You can mix it up and do 4P and get a bounce with a follow up for nearly the same damage. It's not a wall splat, but you can surprise the opponent with it.
Furthermore, if you do a move that results in BT, most people will do a high hold because of the neutral BT P which causes the faint stun and gives you a guaranteed 8P or 8K launch. Try doing a 41236T to mess with these people. Note: You don't need to cancel the BT stance to input the half circle throw, you just need to input it a little bit slower, otherwise it becomes a neutral BT P. Practice it! :)

Thanks for putting this together!
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Some things;

After 214PP wall slam (or any strike for a wall slam), you can do 44P > 6PKKK as well as what you listed above. 44P and 6P+K will lead into the same damage.

214PP+K actually does not guarantee a BT4K, infact it doesn't guarantee anything at all at fastest stagger escape. You might want to edit the guarantee bit out about that.

Momiji's 5K (neutral K) also wall slams in addition to H+K and has delayable follow ups.

I wouldn't exactly say 214PP is superior for wall slams because it's slow and seeable at i23 frames. But it is a good option when it does connect.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Some things;

After 214PP wall slam (or any strike for a wall slam), you can do 44P > 6PKKK as well as what you listed above. 44P and 6P+K will lead into the same damage.

214PP+K actually does not guarantee a BT4K, infact it doesn't guarantee anything at all at fastest stagger escape. You might want to edit the guarantee bit out about that.

Momiji's 5K (neutral K) also wall slams in addition to H+K and has delayable follow ups.

I wouldn't exactly say 214PP is superior for wall slams because it's slow and seeable at i23 frames. But it is a good option when it does connect.
Thanks for your feedback. I will incorporate this in my original post.
 

Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Wall combos involving 214PP
Now that we’re on the subject of wall combos, allow me to share to you the best damaging combos after the 214PP wall splat:

- Alpha 152: 214PP (W!), 6P+K, 6PKKP+K
- Super Lightweights to Middleweights: 214PP (W!), 6P+K, 6PKKK
- Super Heavyweights: 214PP (W!), 6PKKK

I know that 44P, 6PKKK is the popular choice for a wall combo, but I'd like to suggest 6P+K, 6PK, 7K. It does the exact same damage, works on light and midweights, but it has a cool advantage to it: it puts space between you and your opponent. You just need to do one backdash and you're out of range for a wake up kick. Besides, let's not rely on Tenku K or P so much.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I use the 6PKKK as a wall combo because it's recovery allows me to set up wall oki faster. I don't have to deal the WUK when I'm forcing you to make a choice and the WUK isn't one of them.
 

Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I use the 6PKKK as a wall combo because it's recovery allows me to set up wall oki faster. I don't have to deal the WUK when I'm forcing you to make a choice and the WUK isn't one of them.

And I much rather counter a wake up kick with either 6KP, 66K, 214PP+K, 7K or 9K. We play different styles, I'm just pointing out that there's this way, in case someone is afraid of wake up kicks.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I wasn't saying your option is bad, just stating what I use and why I use it. However baiting out the WUK also leads into guessing your own oki because you're giving the opponent the liability of the WUK and a chance to do something silly, like wake up throw.
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
Alright this is kind of a weird question but this is probably the best place to ask it. How exactly do you go about applying wall pressure with momiji? Whenever I get a knockdown near one my opponent usually techs up to the side to avoid being near it. I can wallsplat combo but I never seem to be in a position to do it.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Alright this is kind of a weird question but this is probably the best place to ask it. How exactly do you go about applying wall pressure with momiji? Whenever I get a knockdown near one my opponent usually techs up to the side to avoid being near it. I can wallsplat combo but I never seem to be in a position to do it.
I don't have much expertise in this area, as I think your question concerns a more general area: Free stepping, footsies, spacing, etc. If I have to give my recommendation though, you should land an initial stun, then free step to get your opponent's back straight to the wall.
 

Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
What's bad about relying on 6PKKK as a wall combo finisher?

I don't know about you, but whenever fight another Momiji, she does nothing but the 6PK strings. That's why I try not to use it and prove people that you can win without those. Momiji is considered cheap because the constant abuse of the Tenku.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
I don't know about you, but whenever fight another Momiji, she does nothing but the 6PK strings. That's why I try not to use it and prove people that you can win without those. Momiji is considered cheap because the constant abuse of the Tenku.
Strange, I rarely see people abusing 6PK strings so much. That string is sooo easy to counter with a sidestep or hold. So it's rather dumb of those people to use that string so often. The only occasion where I see the 6PK string is as a combo finisher, but that makes sense as you most likely maximize damage output.
 

Saber

Well-Known Member
The only time I use the 6PK string is as during juggle or string delay on block. The entirety of that string is linear, so if you've got good reaction, just sidestep and whiff punish. And best of all, since Momiji is in air state, she can't re-track, so she stays off-axis.

It's kinda weird that you'd disregard a character's tool (epsecially if it has its uses) just because someone calls it "cheap". Momiji has other tools far cheaper than Tenku, mind you. You can win without it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it at all, especially if it's practically a BnB juggle for her. That, and 6PKK's awesome in stun.
 

Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
It's kinda weird that you'd disregard a character's tool (epsecially if it has its uses) just because someone calls it "cheap".

There are more reasons, not just that. I prefer the 3P4P, 6PKP juggle over Tenku, because I can do unholdables after that.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
There are more reasons, not just that. I prefer the 3P4P, 6PKP juggle over Tenku, because I can do unholdables after that.

I haven't been labbing Momiji out lately (just Ayane to be honest), what other unholdables are you using aside from 6H+K after 6PKP juggles? I don't really like 6H+K as it's terrible on block.
 

Corza

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I haven't been labbing Momiji out lately (just Ayane to be honest), what other unholdables are you using aside from 6H+K after 6PKP juggles? I don't really like 6H+K as it's terrible on block.

214PP+K, 236P+KPP-cT or sidestep K depending on the juggle and weight of the character I'm fighting.

I'm planning to do a video about this soon, I just need to dig deep to find more setups.
 
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