Three strikes and you're out. (Quick Bayman CB guide)

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
First of all, let me say that I do not go for Critical Burst (CB) very often with Bayman. In fact I think a lot of the time it is a mistake as he gets very good damage and wakeup pressure without going through that extra risk.

That said, he DOES have some fairly legit setups into it. You will have to guess a little more, and they can be held out of at different junctions.... but they don't actually require a lot of guessing compared to a lot of other characters for one reason or another.

First, an explanation of the tools and why they work in his favor when going for a Critical Burst.



Your Weapon, Sire.


:7::P: -- The CB itself. 20 frames, safe on block, slightly telegraphed. The telegraphed part is the reason I don't much like using it, but different people react differently to certain animations so that doesn't automatically disqualify it from use inside of a holdable stun.

:2::K::K::K: -- This string plays a major role in CB attempts for a variety of reasons.

On CH, the very first two hits of the string are a natural combo (or 2-in-1) that cannot be held out of. That means you are bypassing a good chunk of the guessing needed to get that damage inside of the stun threshold when going for a critical burst.

Alternatively, if you simply use :2::K: on CH (or inside of a stun) you will get a trip stun which puts your opponent in a temporary Crouch state. This is important, because it sets them up for...

:3::K: -- This kick, when used on a crouching opponent, grants a special "sit down" stun. These stuns are important because they cannot be held out of at all. Unless your opponent is stagger escaping at absolute on-point, nearly inhuman speeds, a CB is all but guaranteed as a followup. And even if they somehow ARE staggering at that speed, you would still have time for a quick launch as a compromise. A dangerous stun indeed.




Yea yea thats nice, how do I kill people?



Both of these setups assume you are on counter-hit, and in open space, away from a wall. If you are anywhere near a wall and you are going for a CB, you should be re-evaluating the entire way you are playing Bayman, because you are most likely Doing It Wrong™.

:2::K::K::K: , :7::P:, :236::P: (3 guesses total)

OR

:3::P:,:2::K:,:3::K:, :7::P:, :236::P: (3 guesses total)

Once they are in the air, your juggle changes a bit depending on weight class.

Light -- :4::P::6::K:, :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P:

Medium -- :3::3::P:, :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P:

Heavy -- :3::K::3::P+K: :H+P:


Notes for the, like, smart people, and stuff.


You will notice that both of these setups place an emphasis on low attacks at one point or another. They are also very predictable during the stun threshold. That is actually intentional.

CB's can be reached in any number of ways, but by purposely keeping the road to a CB as short and narrow as possible, you also broadcast your "intention" to your opponent. This allows you to predict his most likely response after the second or third time he's eaten one of these setups (ie counter/guarding low, etc) and act before he does to capitalize on his most likely response.

It also opens him up to a general fear of lows, which means he will be taking a lot of extra mid punches to the face during a match when he incorrectly anticipates them. Food for thought.
 

Souichiro

Member
Hello Rikuto and nice going with the tournament man. I have one question here.
When you are talking about CB do you mean Critical burst or critical blow? I assume the 1st.
 

Souichiro

Member
Awesome! another thing. In the event the rotation for a CB starts to become more and more obvious and you know your CB or any other mid punch will be caught in a hold, which kick do you recommend best for launching: 9k or 7k?
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
9K should never be used for anything other than laughs. You get virtually no launch height off of it whatsoever.

Well I guess it does look kind of funny when you kick a grounded opponent in the head with it... but yea, that's probably it.

7K is the way to go for an alternate launcher, though if I think if there is a good chance they are going to counter I will usually try to time a DDT to catch them. That just seems to have more payoff usually.
 

Souichiro

Member
Im having real trouble using D.D.T from an oponent in sitdown. At doa4 whenever i had put them on stidown i timed it so that at the end of their recovery i would grab them withought them being able to do virtually anything. In doa5 however i just cant pull that off since they can duck very quickly. Maybe i am doing it wrong i really dont know. Havent had much time to test things out just got the game today.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Entirely possible that they are simply crouch guarding out of stun. A sit down stun isn't the place I would use a DDT though, as you already get a guaranteed launch from that situation at the very least. With a DDT you take a risk they will avoid it out of stun. No reason to be giving up significant guaranteed damage there.
 

Souichiro

Member
Once they are in the air, your juggle changes a bit depending on weight class.

Light -- :4::P::6::K:, :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P:

Medium -- :3::3::P:, :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P:

Heavy -- :3::K::3::P+K: :H+P:

Ok i have another question for you master. I saw you doing a different juggle at the tournament once you had them lifted up.(:3::P::P::6::K: pause and then :P::P::K:) I understand that the ones you posted here set the oponent up for a ground throw at the end of the juggle. So which way is preferable when it comes to damage output?
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's difficult/impossible to do that juggle now. It worked in past builds from E3 all the way to GVN, but in the final build it is very difficult to do that on anything but lights near a wall as the :3::P::P::6::K: pushes them too far away for anything else to connect.

The one I listed is preferable in open space, but there are a lot of ways to approach the situation depending on the environment around you.
 

Genereaver

New Member
For Bayman, is :3_::Link::K: any good as a launcher out of Critical Burst? It doesn't go quite as high as :236: :P: , but goes quite nicely into :3::K::3::P+K::H+P: (Except against Bass/Bayman, who I use :236::P: for) which I'm rather fond of. It's not ideal damage, though, so I guess it's out, but are there any other ways to get to that grab on the lighter character? Or is it just not worth it (and I admit :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P: confuses me a little; is :3::K: a short untechable, making the non-roll ground throw the only good option?) with so many better options?
 

Souichiro

Member
For Bayman, is :3_::Link::K: any good as a launcher out of Critical Burst? It doesn't go quite as high as :236: :P: , but goes quite nicely into :3::K::3::P+K::H+P: (Except against Bass/Bayman, who I use :236::P: for) which I'm rather fond of. It's not ideal damage, though, so I guess it's out, but are there any other ways to get to that grab on the lighter character? Or is it just not worth it (and I admit :3::K:, :2::H+P::Link::2::2::H+P: confuses me a little; is :3::K: a short untechable, making the non-roll ground throw the only good option?) with so many better options?

I wouldn't choose :3_::Link::K: as a launcher and it's not because the launch height is bad but because it is unsafe against lows and several mids. I'd go with :7: :K: instead. And from there, like Rikuto has said, It depends on whether your oponent is near a wall or not. If they are, go with :P::P::P:. If they are in the middle, go with :P::P: and after that, if they haven't teched imediately, ground throw them (In DOA4 after the second hit you could ground throw them imediately if you timed it right but its actually techable now although the tech from that is a tad strict).
As for :3::K: yes at the end of a juggle it makes the oponent unable to tech and the best option would be a ground throw.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Hey so post CB, Is it pointless to use :7::K: to go for a BT :P::P: :5: :2::H+P:? Maybe there's another juggle instead?

[Edit]Nvm my timing was way off.
 

shinryu

Active Member
Does the 2k force tech? How much advantage do you have off that? I am learning the power of force tech and it seems like Bayman would be able to exploit it fully. Doesn't matter if the OH takes 23 frames if you're at +19.
 

Souichiro

Member
No 2k doesnt force tech(at least not the knee drop version) 1k does though and so does 4k and P+K.
As for the frame advanage they give im unaware of to be honest. Need to hit the lab for that.
 

shinryu

Active Member
Oh, it's the knee drop, sorry, misunderstood. Will try the other techs out. Mila and Tina can get some +19 situations which is just vile. Bayman at +19 would be an angry god between 236k and DDT.
 

Souichiro

Member
Not sure about D.D.T. Can an ooponent crouch out of force tech? if yes D.D.T will be amazing then again if they can throw in that situation it will become a counter throw :S
Im not very familiar with Okizeme i need to start getting into that pretty soon.
 

shinryu

Active Member
Well after a force tech nothing is guaranteed and I'm pretty sure they can crouch out of it. (possibly not if it hits on the first frame, I will check that out). Pretty sure they can throw too. However, they basically have to choose crouch/throw and eat giant kick to face or don't crouch/hold and eat DDT or sidestep and eat them both, and they need to make this choice by frame 1 of their recovery. That is assuming a +19 situation.
 

Genereaver

New Member
No 2k doesnt force tech(at least not the knee drop version) 1k does though and so does 4k and P+K.
As for the frame advanage they give im unaware of to be honest. Need to hit the lab for that.
Here's the frame advantage of some of his force techs:
:2::H+K: = +12, but quite a distance away
:P+K: = +20, goes into DDT quite nicely, though they can of course duck it.
:1::K: = +25, but puts them out of DDT range.
:4::K: = +20, at the very edge of DDT range.
:1::P: = +15, same range as :2::H+K: (not sure it's a force tech, though; I have the computer set to recover, and it gets up without the 'tech roll' appearing, so maybe?)
 

Souichiro

Member
Whoa i just noticed. We totally spaced the thread. This is supposed to be a CB thread :S Lets take it to another thread and ask for a mod to remove these from here if possible.
 
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