DOA5LR Top 10 Worst Moves

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
I'm seeing a 'Top 10 Moves' in almost any character-specific forum so I thought it would be a fun idea to create a 'Top 10 Worst Moves' for once. Personally, I had an extremely hard time coming up with ten bad moves for Momiji. Feel free to comment yours, if you'd like. Perhaps we can even convice each other that a bad move listed by someone isn't bad at all. We're here to help each other out anyway! Here's my list (in no particular order):

:1::P::P: - Slow startup, very unsafe on block (-13). Even if the first punch hits on NH, they will most likely guard the second one and have an opportunity to throw punish you. It's relatively easy to react to with a hold, too.

:6::P::P: - While the first punch has i12 startup - which is fast - the follow-up isn't very good for several reasons: 1) It's a mid punch, so that means you're doing two mid punches in a row --> no mix-up! 2) It's unsafe on block (-11). 3) The second punch is pretty easy to react to with a hold. The only time this string is actually good is when it hits, because it gives a crumple stun. But this is rarely the case.

:K::K: - Pretty quick, but doesn't give a big enough stun to follow-up with a launch. Only non-slow escapable follow-up would be P, and if your opponent is aware of this he can do a high hold every time they anticipate this, or otherwise slow escape. Also, this move is semi-safe on block (-6), and thus can be neutral thrown with 5T.

BT :4::K: - Unsafe on block (-9). If it hits, the sitdown gives no guaranteed follow-ups if the opponent slow escapes.

BT :H+K: - Haven't found a single good use for this move yet.

BT :P+K: - Safe on block (-3) but only useful if you need some breathing room. She has better options from back turned.

:P+K: - You don't need to play the Critical Burst game with Momiji since she has an excellent stun-launch game. That, and the fact that this move is slow and unsafe on block (-8).

:1_::P::K: - Unsafe on block (-15) and reactable by blocking even if the first punch hits on Normal Hit.

:6::P::K::K: / :6::K::K: / :P::P::K::K: - Useless on block. All Tenku follow-ups can be shut down by fuzzy guarding.

:6::6::P::P: - I see too many people overuse this string at mid-long range in hopes to launch their opponent. However, this string should only be used for whiff punishment purposes. It's very unsafe on block (-12) and the second punch can be reacted to with a mid punch hold since it has no other follow-ups. 6P is a much better option mainly because it is safe on block (-5).
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
1P is not a bad move at all, it acts the same way as Ayane's 3P except it's a low with good range follow ups, like Ayane's 3P follow ups (same can be said for Hayate's 1P). It's a multi-purpose tool for mix up and it's actually very good during the neutral game as a low poke with respectable follow ups. At different distances you can control the space in front of you while also staying in ranges where the follow ups can hit, as a threat.

Utilizing this move as a neutral tool often threatens the opponent as a good low poke, forcing them to block low. That alone makes this a good move.

6PP actually is a mix up in stun. You either hold it or you don't, and if it hits in threshold then they are put into a gut stun. It's not favorable for the defender in stun at all.

66P is a great tool, can control neutral space, you can poke with it and threaten with it's follow up. It's a great whiff punisher with a follow up as a threat.

6PK is really good in stun, 6PK is decent on block when you delay it. Not everyone fighting Momiji will have the ability to fuzzy guard.

P+K is a wall slam and good stun on all hit status that you cannot stagger escape. Forces you to hold out of it or guess with a hold.

BT4K is a solid mid range poke and is range safe due to pushback. I mix it up as a keep out tool when feinting with 44K at a distance.

KK is most certainly one of Momiji better neutral strings. K being i12 with a damage base of 24 is solid, while having two follow ups. KK is safe at -6 and both KK and KP are very delayable. Frame advantage is frame advantage and you can still jab even if someone actually tries to stagger escape at fastest. This is a very solid range tool and neutral tool in general, you have an i12 move you can poke with and feint with at the same time.

I actually have a few OTG set ups with BT H+K but they are pretty specific. But it's definitely not useless, do trust.

Honestly, nothing you've listed are actually terrible moves, they all have very good uses. You kind of just have to really look at them and give them a purpose. You're basically taking away almost half of her neutral game if you dismiss these tools.
 
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jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
When i read the title, i immediatly thought "are there really wrong moves, or clearer , what is exactly a wrong move?". A wrong move is a move used in a incorrect situation. So even a very good move can be wrong if used at the wrong time.

Then i read ihajin's answer. That illustrates my question. Every "bad" move can be a good one if you know how to use it and when to use it.

For instance for kokoro, i always thought that :6::6::P+K::P+K::H+P: was useless. It can't be used neither in neutral (you can be counterthrown) nor in stun ( the throw is uneffective). Until i saw someone that always sidestep my linear :6::6::P+K::P+K::P+K: (note below), then i knew that the throw would catch his sidestep. So that useless move became effectively good against him because i conditionned him to sidestep my linear strings.

So i think that the thread should not be "the 10 worst moves" but instead "the 10 misused moves" or "the 10 expert moves" or something like that. Then we could give advice on how to use these more advance and not so obvious tools.

----
note:
:6::6::P+K::P+K::P+K: is also a "terrible" move in neutral, but this grain of salt is somtimes really effective
 
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KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
1P is not a bad move at all, it acts the same way as Ayane's 3P except it's a low with good range follow ups, like Ayane's 3P follow ups (same can be said for Hayate's 1P). It's a multi-purpose tool for mix up and it's actually very good during the neutral game as a low poke with respectable follow ups. At different distances you can control the space in front of you while also staying in ranges where the follow ups can hit, as a threat.

Utilizing this move as a neutral tool often threatens the opponent as a good low poke, forcing them to block low. That alone makes this a good move.

6PP actually is a mix up in stun. You either hold it or you don't, and if it hits in threshold then they are put into a gut stun. It's not favorable for the defender in stun at all.

66P is a great tool, can control neutral space, you can poke with it and threaten with it's follow up. It's a great whiff punisher with a follow up as a threat.

6PK is really good in stun, 6PK is decent on block when you delay it. Not everyone fighting Momiji will have the ability to fuzzy guard.

P+K is a wall slam and good stun on all hit status that you cannot stagger escape. Forces you to hold out of it or guess with a hold.

BT4K is a solid mid range poke and is range safe due to pushback. I mix it up as a keep out tool when feinting with 44K at a distance.

KK is most certainly one of Momiji better neutral strings. K being i12 with a damage base of 24 is solid, while having two follow ups. KK is safe at -6 and both KK and KP are very delayable. Frame advantage is frame advantage and you can still jab even if someone actually tries to stagger escape at fastest. This is a very solid range tool and neutral tool in general, you have an i12 move you can poke with and feint with at the same time.

I actually have a few OTG set ups with BT H+K but they are pretty specific. But it's definitely not useless, do trust.

Honestly, nothing you've listed are actually terrible moves, they all have very good uses. You kind of just have to really look at them and give them a purpose. You're basically taking away almost half of her neutral game if you dismiss these tools.
Hmm interesting. I never thought of the potential of these moves. As I said, I found it extremely hard to come up with ten moves which aren't very useful to me. In battle, I have a standard set of moves, such as CH 6P, 6K, CH 3P, 6P+K etc. for opening up people, whereas I have H+K, 4K, 44K and 3K as range pokes. It's just that I rarely use the ones I listed but now I can see the uses after reading your feedback.

1P is indeed good, but the follow-ups are reactable and unsafe, so that's why I thought the full string isn't very useful, not the 1P itself. I agree with 6PP being great in stun.

As for KK, I have to scratch that one since I'm finding this move more useful than when I wrote that list.

I stil don't find myself using BT 4K, BT P+K and BT H+K though.

EDIT: By the way, I appreciate your feedback. I actually feel like I learnt something new after you told me how good these moves actually are.
 
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KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
When i read the title, i immediatly thought "are there really wrong moves, or clearer , what is exactly a wrong move?". A wrong move is a move used in a incorrect situation. So even a very good move can be wrong if used at the wrong time.

Then i read ihajin's answer. That illustrates my question. Every "bad" move can be a good one if you know how to use it and when to use it.

For instance for kokoro, i always thought that :6::6::P+K::P+K::H+P: was useless. It can't be used neither in neutral (you can be counterthrown) nor in stun ( the throw is uneffective). Until i saw someone that always sidestep my linear :6::6::P+K::P+K::P+K: (note below), then i knew that the throw would catch his sidestep. So that useless move became effectively good against him because i conditionned him to sidestep my linear strings.

So i think that the thread should not be "the 10 worst moves" but instead "the 10 misused moves" or "the 10 expert moves" or something like that. Then we could give advice on how to use these more advance and not so obvious tools.

----
note:
:6::6::P+K::P+K::P+K: is also a "terrible" move in neutral, but this grain of salt is somtimes really effective
These aren't exactly 'wrong' moves, rather top 10 'worst' moves. There is a difference between the two. Hypothetically, a character can have a moveset with 100% solid moves, but there is still a difference in how important certain moves are. Thus, these moves aren't wrong/useless to me but the least important imo. But after reading Hajin's feedback, I'll have to revise my list.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Hmm interesting. I never thought of the potential of these moves. As I said, I found it extremely hard to come up with ten moves which aren't very useful to me. In battle, I have a standard set of moves, such as CH 6P, 6K, CH 3P, 6P+K etc. for opening up people, whereas I have H+K, 4K, 44K and 3K as range pokes. It's just that I rarely use the ones I listed but now I can see the uses after reading your feedback.

1P is indeed good, but the follow-ups are reactable and unsafe, so that's why I thought the full string isn't very useful, not the 1P itself. I agree with 6PP being great in stun.

As for KK, I have to scratch that one since I'm finding this move more useful than when I wrote that list.

I stil don't find myself using BT 4K, BT P+K and BT H+K though.

EDIT: By the way, I appreciate your feedback. I actually feel like I learnt something new after you told me how good these moves actually are.

Strings for the most part are usually unsafe so that's just the nature of DOA. Keep in mind that Ayane's 3PP/3PK and Hayate's 1PP/1PK are unsafe as well but what makes these good moves is the general fact that 3P and 1P have follow ups there to keep opponent's in check. Try applying some 1P to your range game and use it's follow ups when you find it suitable. Just to see what kind of results you'll get, as an experiment.

As for BT P+K, it's the second hit of 3PP so it's safe at -3 and has the knock back.

Think of it this way, when you're using 44K whether it is to control space, approach, keepout, etc. You will have a strike mix up while in back turned stance to keep people on their toes while also mixing up something like 44K > 44 to control space and keepout.

BT P - Faint stun on counter hit.
BT K - H+K but from back turned stance.
BT 4P - Has a follow up.
BT P+K - Second hit of 3PP.
BT 4K - Distance safe on block, push back and leaves you at +0 on neutral hit. Sit down on counter hit gives you a chance for offense.
BT 2P - i13 frame low jab, +0 on neutral hit, +9 on counter hit.
BT 2K - 2H+K but from back turned stance.

You have tons of good buttons from back turned stance to make people guess and be careful while they try to approach you, or vice versa.

BT 4K and BT P+K aren't really meant to do a lot of damage, they are meant to keep the opponent out.

4P and PP4P are good range pokes and ways to close distance too, so is running H+K since it's +1 on block.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Hmmm.... well yeah.... even the AI can punish the Tenchu moves... the only thing I like about it is you can Power Blow in Mid Air. The moves from that stance are just too linear, all of them can be side stepped.
Still I aint giving up on Momiji yet... if only because I struggle with Ayane..... or maybe I should.... I don't know.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Hmmm.... well yeah.... even the AI can punish the Tenchu moves... the only thing I like about it is you can Power Blow in Mid Air. The moves from that stance are just too linear, all of them can be side stepped.
Still I aint giving up on Momiji yet... if only because I struggle with Ayane..... or maybe I should.... I don't know.
Fair point. The charged mid-air Power Blow is reactable though. It might not work against experienced players with a good reaction time.

Oh, and Momiji actually has something that tracks from Tenku: Her Tenku Throw. All throws have tracking (if I'm not mistaken), so if you notice your opponent likes to sidestep just do a Tenku Throw. It will give you the damage from a 'Counter Throw', which nets a pretty solid amount of damage if you follow-up with the max damage juggle (for lightweights and middleweights):

Tenku :H+P: > :H+K: > :6::P::K: > :3::P::4::P::P:
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Fair point. The charged mid-air Power Blow is reactable though. It might not work against experienced players with a good reaction time.

Oh, and Momiji actually has something that tracks from Tenku: Her Tenku Throw. All throws have tracking (if I'm not mistaken), so if you notice your opponent likes to sidestep just do a Tenku Throw. It will give you the damage from a 'Counter Throw', which nets a pretty solid amount of damage if you follow-up with the max damage juggle (for lightweights and middleweights):

Tenku :H+P: > :H+K: > :6::P::K: > :3::P::4::P::P:

I'm not sure but I think I've seen someone Free Step out of harms way from that Throw...... or they can just Fuzzy Guard it.
I feel like I can only use Tenchu for juggling, and its very powerfull, you can end almost any juggle with the 6PKK K/P and it all connects like 99 percent of the time...... but its just so boring.... and its very risky to use on opponents who still have both feet on the ground On hit and Block.
Her Quarter Circle Back P P+K in to BT 4 K is pretty powerfull..... its three sit down stuns in a row Plus Crital Burst..... but.... I'm still not sold on Momiji..... I like her long legs though.... I wonder if thread creator factored in distance into MomijI's unsafe kicks.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You can definitely free step or fuzzy the throw from Tenku. The following characters have off the ground (aerial) throws that have tracking;

Ayane: 8T
Lisa: Running T
Nyo-Tengu: 9PT

Every other character with an off the ground (aerial) throw does not have tracking.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure but I think I've seen someone Free Step out of harms way from that Throw...... or they can just Fuzzy Guard it.
I feel like I can only use Tenchu for juggling, and its very powerfull, you can end almost any juggle with the 6PKK K/P and it all connects like 99 percent of the time...... but its just so boring.... and its very risky to use on opponents who still have both feet on the ground On hit and Block.
Her Quarter Circle Back P P+K in to BT 4 K is pretty powerfull..... its three sit down stuns in a row Plus Crital Burst..... but.... I'm still not sold on Momiji..... I like her long legs though.... I wonder if thread creator factored in distance into MomijI's unsafe kicks.
Tenku is indeed best used for juggling. It's awful on block since all of the follow-up options can be disrespected with fuzzy guard. While the Tenku juggle may look boring, the Tenku finisher 6PKKP is maximum damage most of the time. Personally, I wouldn't go for a different juggle in a tournament setting, but in friendly/casual matches you can of course follow up with all you want.

214PP+K - BT 4K isn't guaranteed, however. It can be slow escaped and if they don't slow escape the CB isn't guaranteed either. But it's a nice setup if it does work, indeed.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
You can definitely free step or fuzzy the throw from Tenku. The following characters have off the ground (aerial) throws that have tracking;

Ayane: 8T
Lisa: Running T
Nyo-Tengu: 9PT

Every other character with an off the ground (aerial) throw does not have tracking.
Ahh, there's why I was mistaken. Then it's only the non-aerial throws which always have tracking.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Tenku is indeed best used for juggling. It's awful on block since all of the follow-up options can be disrespected with fuzzy guard. While the Tenku juggle may look boring, the Tenku finisher 6PKKP is maximum damage most of the time. Personally, I wouldn't go for a different juggle in a tournament setting, but in friendly/casual matches you can of course follow up with all you want.

214PP+K - BT 4K isn't guaranteed, however. It can be slow escaped and if they don't slow escape the CB isn't guaranteed either. But it's a nice setup if it does work, indeed.

Is it Tenku ? Damn my eyesight must be failing me.
My problem with both 214 P and BT 4 K is the lack of versatility compared to 6 H+K. The 214 P set up just doesn't have alot of options.... I think to get the CB I have to use that move first, if I opt for a safe stun into 214 P then by the time I reach BT 4 K I will have already gone over the critical limit.... I mean if she atleast had a BT launcher Then I would have a reason to go Backwards more often... I have a similiar problem with Mila's 66 K on Block (literally her only move that goes BT).... I get nothing out of it that I couldn't get Facing Forward anyway.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Is it Tenku ? Damn my eyesight must be failing me.
My problem with both 214 P and BT 4 K is the lack of versatility compared to 6 H+K. The 214 P set up just doesn't have alot of options.... I think to get the CB I have to use that move first, if I opt for a safe stun into 214 P then by the time I reach BT 4 K I will have already gone over the critical limit.... I mean if she atleast had a BT launcher Then I would have a reason to go Backwards more often... I have a similiar problem with Mila's 66 K on Block (literally her only move that goes BT).... I get nothing out of it that I couldn't get Facing Forward anyway.
It is Tenku, yes. Perhaps you were confused with one of Phase 4's stances? :p
Chifu + Tenku --> Tenchu

Yeah I agree that 6H+K is the more dominant sit-down stun for Momiji. A lot of times you get the bound stun with BT 4K when the stun overrides the critical limit. She actually has BT 4PP in which the second punch is a launcher, but I assume you're talking about her lack of BT one-hit launchers.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
It is Tenku, yes. Perhaps you were confused with one of Phase 4's stances? :p
Chifu + Tenku --> Tenchu

Yeah I agree that 6H+K is the more dominant sit-down stun for Momiji. A lot of times you get the bound stun with BT 4K when the stun overrides the critical limit. She actually has BT 4PP in which the second punch is a launcher, but I assume you're talking about her lack of BT one-hit launchers.

Is it similar to her 66 PP ?
Anyway I haven't played as Phase 4 or any of the Post Momiji/Rachel Characters yet other than a short trial with Marie Rose, the game isn't actually available in my Region so when I go to the DLC section all I see is the LR Costume Catalogue 03, the other 500 pieces of DLC is just not there..... sigh... why must the things I love be so annoying.
 
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