Your hopes for DOA5U Hayate

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

Hayate players are really annoyed with the stuff he lost in DOA5. And how he actually "suck" in comparison for the previous games.
So here we can discuss what kind of things we can change about his gameplay, moves that he lost, frame advantage, costumes, etc... for DOA5U.

 

[TakedaZX]

http://takedazxdoa.blogspot.com/2013/05/doa-entry-tldr-hayate-changes.html

I don't really go over many frame data changes because I'd just rather have the frame work fixed up for everyone overall. Jabs should be advantage on hit and no move should be completely unsafe on NH.

I want his old strings back, maybe a new mix-up or two off of certain ones, and more importantly I high to mid string mix-up that stuns. I go over that with my 7p idea.

Wind Dash Chat​

I want his old wind dash back, in addition to his new one. I go over this in one of my other entries but this is why. His old wind dash was more of a means to an entry and it seems like Hayate's new wind dash is better considered means to an end at this point. Look at the moves:

DOA4 236F
- Elbow with stun on NH
- Knockdown that high crushes and wall splats
- Low mix-up that puts the opponent on the ground, and while they can tech it's still a nice get in move.
- Throw that was iconic but left you generally close to the opponent
- Teleport behind the opponent

DOA5 6P+K
- Frame advantage high punch knockdown/wall splat.
1.02 version - Unsafe launcher that kept a solid launch height at all points in time especially when the last kick breaks the threshold (which gave a ppp, 33kk)
1.03 version - Shadow of 4h+k. Ask for a lot more commitment since it's 32 frames. Still can threshold break launch but only with the first kick.
- Launcher, good height on CH, HCH, and post CB. Raw and stun launch are pretty bad but that can be fixed withthe 7ppp string I mentioned. (This would give him a solid juggle but wouldn't need to exceed pp6pk
- Throw that leaves Hayate pretty far away from the opponent and does GREAT damage. GREEAAAAT damage. (It's shame that if he catches someone in BT though, the damage is reduced and the animation changes to not as flashy version of his previous wind dash throw)

So as you can see, with the options from DOA4's 236F he had the option to get you with a stunning mid elbow that would give him pretty good advantage to work with the stun game. If people were holding that elbow, you could put them on the ground with the kick or into the wall which would be great in DOA5. His low kick would be the move to mix-up with on both of those if you don't want to risk high counter and if you did want to risk Hi-Counter or punish holders/parrying characters, you could and the animation was cool as well.

On the other hand DOA5 1.02's wind dash was GOOD as it was. It was the making of a wind dash that would be good to cancel into to put the opponent into the air with either a mid punch or mid kick. If they decided they'd block, then you could mix in the throw for damage and the punch for damage if you didn't want to risk hi counter. Put THIS wind dash as his wind dash cancel from strings, and you've got a truly good 50/50 launch situation from stuns.

The change to the P+K and K in the 1.03 patch made the P+K more deadly at all points. Only thing it's missing is tracking because this would be the tracking option for sure.

The K on the other hand is trying to be two things at one time and it needs to be one, in my opinion. They should split it into two moves. 4h+k should come back as is and the wind dash K should stay as the launcher it was in 1.02.

This way, he'd have a good wind dash to cancel into in the stun game to get that good launch mix-up while styling. The DOA4 236F would give him a way to come in strong, especially with 66.

In the end, I could sit here and type for hours upon hours about my ideas and I still wouldn't be close to finished probably. Anyway... yea I'll post later about my deal on strings and continue about the wind dash by putting out some of my wind dash cancel ideas.

 

[TakedaZX]

New/Old String Chat​

7P

As I've said in a few topics, would be the new notation for a high punch resembling Hitomi's 7p and somewhat following the same criteria.

7PP would go from a high hook to a palm. From there he could finish with 7PPP which would be a mid punch sort of like her 4PPP ender or rather 9H~P punch. The animation would take a more masculine/balanced approach rather than Hitomi's which also seems like she's trying a little too hard. 7PP[[P]] would be the charged version which would be one of his Rekkuga guard breaks for +3 as usual.

7PK would go to a knee as well (like Kasumi's 6K animation). This would create the high to mid mix-up which would be a really good thing for him. It'd be a nice way to get a good high punch stun and if they happen to reaction low hold, you'll catch them with the knee which would be a lift/uppercut stun. 7PKP would end in a mid punch like Hitomi's 4KP basically but it could be more so a palm.

Hayate doesn't need new juggles but if people had an issue with 7PK really being a juggle option, then it could just knockdown an aerial opponent. Simple as that because he really doesn't need new juggles. Maybe something that's good for a NH 6p+k~p+k, which would be 7ppp no charge, but yea that's it.

2KK and 1K Mix-ups

2KK is self explanatory. 2K by itself is empty. He needs the, "will he do it or will he not do it", pressure. Giving this back would give that pressure.

1KP was a nice launcher and 1KK was a nice sweep to have. Adding these along side 1K6P+K would be a nice thing to have, since 1K was a really good unseeable low. Making this safer on hit would be nice too.

PP4P

Now I'm going to be honest... I don't actually care about this string. Yea the stun is deep and it will stop sidestep, plus it gives a low sweep option, with the high safe poke and guard break mix-up and I imagine they'd probably give him the wind dash cancel for it.

Frankly it's only there to stop sidestep though for me, with that sweep as another option. PK is there for immediate track but it's high. Not downplaying it though, PK is sufficient for immediate sidestep checking. A lot of other characters have that kind of stuff:

JL
p6p - hh
p6pk - hhm
p6p2k - hhl
p2p2k - hml

Kasumi
p6p - hm
p6pk - hml
ppk - hhh
pp2k - hhl
pp6k - hhm

The trend here is that they all have tracking options that come from 3 hits or below. Hayate has PK and PPK and that's where it ends. His low sweep is the 4th hit of PP2KK and his mid kick is the 4th hit of PP6PK. PP4P would be solid to have but it'd also be nice to get his PPK/H+K back a stun rather than the static launch it has now so that he can follow up on the good read rather than just the BS knockdown.

Wind Dash Chat P.2.​

6P+K Properties

Frankly I only want the kick to become a launcher again and have 4h+k return as a raw move as well. This would help a lot and really make a move towards the double wind dash idea.

Speaking on the kick, if you add the launcher back, it becomes basically another 2 in 1 situation like 4k6k. See the downsides to a 2 in 1 launch are you sacrifice damage to reduce the guessing by 1 in the cases of the stun system in this game. In the end, it is worth it

Another important thing would be aerial retracking. If you play Tekken you'll know about Lars and his FF2 SE. Basically he slaps the person into the air and then wind dashes under them, but he turns around during the dash under allowing him to continue with a full juggle. This would help Hayate out a lot, especially with his Raijin throw or certain launches on CH.

By giving him the aerial retracking, Hayate would be able to do 4P6P+K(dash under and turn around)~K, PP6PK (70 damage) and 4P6P+K(dash under and turn around)~K, PPKK (71 damage). I know these numbers because the wind dash glitches at the wall sometimes allowing him to do this juggle. Also it can be done at invisible walls. Making this the juggle to do on the regular would be something really nice to have. 4K6K, 8P, PP6PK would reach 70 damage at the wall and keep them there if you need that option. This is godlike!!!!!!

There's no excuses either, because other characters can maximize their damage off of launching throws by as many as 5 points on NH and even more on CH and HCH. It's not much of a difference but it DOES make a difference.

New Cancels

3K6P+K - Mean it just seems so right... it just needs to link in so that he can pick between the two launchers as a mix-up situation and the throw for when they hold too much.

214P6P+K - I visualize this in my head and I find it very satisfying. Unnecessary though. All 214P needs is for the delay window to be opened up slightly on the last punch, but I wouldn't mind having the wind dash option just because.

H+K6P+K/PPK6P+K - Just like Kasumi's. He'd need the stun returned to its DOA4 status which would mean it being the same as JL's 8K and other like kicks. It'd be a 50/50 situation again for launches. People can complain all day about the guessing but if you got caught in the first place then you probably deserve a guaranteed launch over that. >_>

66KK6P+K - Change the 66K to a lift stun. 66KK can give sort of a fainting deep stun or stun like JL's 8K (holdable though) so that he'll get the, you guessed it 50/50 off of the wind dash launchers. In a juggle it'd allow him to finish with the uppercut and kick as enders. Unfortunately the kick WOULD be the best choice for damage but the uppercut would be there for aesthetics. Know what I'm saying?

8P8K6P+K/BT 7K6P+K - Special case, only on hit. In a juggle this would work to form a way of getting in your opponents face after the ender. Raw, it'd work as a good way of punishing your opponent for pressing buttons after 8P and it would give you a juggle, like (8P)8K6P+K~K, BT 7K or (8P)8K6P+K~K, PP6PK. The damage may be a bit too much though. I'll measure it up later.

8PK should become neutral or + on block as well so that for using it, you get some sort of structural advantage since it's such a slow move so that if they finally respect you, you're not having to work from a BT mix-up or having to go for a kick that's -31 on block.

 

[Blacka Blocka Flocka]

I want the new wind dash reverted back to the old wind dash.
I want the old 4FK poke back
I want the PPP and PP4PP strings back
Also give 3FK its delay back or make the whole string a three in one

 

[TakedaZX]

I want the new wind dash reverted back to the old wind dash.
I want the old 4FK poke back
I want the PPP and PP4PP strings back
Also give 3FK its delay back or make the whole string a three in one

Agreed, though I still do believe in the current dash. It's very good it's just I still think of it like means to an end rather than entry, like the old dash was. Dunno if you read my post.

Also, we should play soon. I hear you're good and I want to see what I can learn from playing your Hayate.

 

[DR2K]

Nerfs everywhere, the ultimate low tier ninja.

 

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

Other than some of his old moves back, wich is the most important, I also want to see a tag throw with kasumi as well with other characters that he is related(Bayman, Zack and Helena for example) He only have a tag throw with six characters at this moment wich is kinda lame.

 

[TakedaZX]

Other than some of his old moves back, wich is the most important, I also want to see a tag throw with kasumi as well with other characters that he is related (Bayman, Zack and Helena for example) He only have a tag throw with six characters at this moment wich is kinda lame.

True that, especially for Kasumi. I think they plan on giving him and Ein a tag throw as well for DOA5U so I'd imagine they'd finally think of something for those two. I always thought he'd have a more epic one with Hitomi yet all they gave them was an uppercut into his 214k. :/

Last things on my list are basically frame changes and damage changes now: Consistent/more frame advantage from SS K, 236K, 8PK, his sweeps on NH so that he can follow up with potentially 15 frame moves on no SE. That's how it used to be.

Also 66P could get a buff. It has issues with its follow ups because on guard it's -12 (for what ever reason). It used to be -9 but you could handle 66PK and 66P2K by ducking and 66PP didn't offer much more than a knockback (which was ok at the wall). Now his follow ups can be interrupted by a simple jab and any FEMALE with an 11i jab can stop EVERYTHING that comes after.

The funny thing about that, it's been tested. 6P (which is usually the 11i jab) for Kasumi, Christie, and Pai can stop all of his follow ups. JL, Gen-Fu, and Zack. But it's pretty lame that this even has to be an issue. It should be -9 so that on block everything is actually threatening. Besides, they sidestep the first punch and they get a really good chance of stopping his moves. Even 66P2K. ._.

1PP is another issue since it can be interrupted so easily, it should probably be reassessed. That way if someone does press buttons, you'll always have an option. Since it's -11 on block like all the other punches that can go into Rekkuga (66P+K), it should have that option.

Yea... I want that doa 3+4+5 Hayate... yea... yea! that's like... DOA12 HAYATE!

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Hayate far from sucks ..

great juggle and relaunch potential ..
mad damage potential from ceiling stuns ..
1K ALL DAY !!
natural combos with 9PP and 6K4K
his sidestep P into 8P is guaranteed and extremely deadly as its a sitdown stun ..
Awesome command side step ..
and his frames are better than what people think ... (much better than other characters)

in my opinion .. all he really needs right now is his dash teleport ... to make him a bit more ninja than he is ... and plus it would add a nice mixup tool to his play style ... especially with the new string dash cancels


He needs the teleport to make him feel more like hayate... right now hes just super ein .. lol

 

[TakedaZX]

Hayate far from sucks ..

great juggle and relaunch potential ..
mad damage potential from ceiling stuns ..
1K ALL DAY !!
natural combos with 9PP and 6K4K
his sidestep P into 8P is guaranteed and extremely deadly as its a sitdown stun ..
Awesome command side step ..
and his frames are better than what people think ... (much better than other characters)

in my opinion .. all he really needs right now is his dash teleport ... to make him a bit more ninja than he is ... and plus it would add a nice mixup tool to his play style ... especially with the new string dash cancels


He needs the teleport to make him feel more like hayate... right now hes just super ein .. lol

Far from the only thing he needs, but half of these ideas are over shooting characters simply because we know other characters are getting stepped up as well. It's been stated by team ninja that at the least, new combos will be in DOA5. If they took what they had with DOA4 Hayate, mixed that with DOA5 Hayate, and push worked with the system for frame improvements on everyone, he'd be fine.

Not many people actually know about Hayate. They don't play him like I do, they haven't broken him down like I do. Probably not one of you can tell me all the characters that can stop Hayate's 66P mix-up (without checking). Most people can't tell me what can stop Hayate's 1pp without sidestepping the last punch which probably isn't a good idea since he's got 1p2k. Not many of you can tell me how he can guarantee a CB with 3PP. Not many people can tell me what frame Hayate's high crush activates on 8P. Not many, yet these same people that don't know consider Hayate to be good because the wrong stuff is being respected because it wasn't explored.

This is why I still stand by #BuffHayate. Other characters can get their changes and buffs too but first and foremost, #BuffHayate.

 

[DeathHand]

I have not complains xD I love winning against stronger players that use jann lee and Helenas with my mid tier Hayate =´P but yes more new moves are always welcome =´) I also want a ninja gaiden kind of costume for Hayate,I love his new armor but I what another cool 1 =´D

 

[TakedaZX]

It's time for the movement to begin, come on my brothers! #BuffHayate... #BuffHayate... #BUFFHAYATE!!!!!!!

 

[Tenryuga]

This is what I want in addition to Takeda's and Accurate's suggestions

-Fair 3K sitdown stun on crouching status. (Guaranteeing 8P but not CB)

-236K changed from +1 to +3-5 so he isn't as free coming in on Kasumi or Christie.

-Buff 1PP and its mixup's. They are both interuptable and don't give that great a reward on hit. I suggest making 1pp a sitdown stun on counter hit and in stun, guaranteeing a 8P or 33K.

-Buff the damage on Raijin or make the combo throw timer make sense. I can put in perfect inputs and still not get the throw. I keep hearing that its glitchy. A throw shouldn't be this difficult yet net less damage than a Kasumi 236T juggle.

-Make either 6P or 6PK safe (-5 -or -6) on block. Let's be honest -12 for a POKE is pretty ridiculous.

I believe these changes will complement how Hayate is to be played and solidify his gameplan. He has good mid ranged options and good ways to punish people in 236T, the evasiveness of 8/2P+K and his guaranteed combos off SSP. GIving him the other tools will make people want to think more about trying to duck an expected 236K, sweep, or throw.

-Make 1K safe or give it an unsafe followup. Almost every other Ninja with a high crush has a followup to make it respectable except Hayate. If you have not punished Hayate for 1K prior to reading this you need to stop being ignorant and start doing it now.

EMPEROR_COW. Idk how you are getting away with 1K all day. That move is throw punishable on block but many people don't punish it for some reason. Frames are much better than other chars? Lol you must mean Eliot or Zack. Name the characters that Hayate has better frames than.

 

[TakedaZX]

Well I have to say the return of his teleport is cool. I have this gut feeling it won't travel long distances though... but time will tell. Until then, I hope that they consider the 7PPP/7PKP/7PK2K idea. It'd be pretty helpful.

 

[XZero264]

He also got another stance on top of his Wind Teleport.
5:45 for the Wind teleport.
7:18 for the other stance (not a veteran Hayate, no idea if he used to have this or not).
Couple seconds early for each so you can see the whole thing.

!

 

[TakedaZX]

7:18 for the other stance (not a veteran Hayate, no idea if he used to have this or not).

!

Yea that's his old flip mix-up. He used to have PP6P7K. Basically what you could do is PP6P4 which would put you into the flip for a fake out then you could drop or finish with the delayed kick. This was from DOA3.

Personally, on a creative stand point I didn't really like DOA3 Hayate. He was the most solid fundamentally and mechanically but he wasn't interesting at all. He needs to reach that flair he had in DOA4 while keeping the new DOA5 tech and working it around while stepping up (which the whole game and cast) to DOA3 status.

Hopefully it happens.

 

[TakedaZX]

Anyone want to get in the chat at some point and just talk about some Hayate buffs and things? I was thinking of another idea but I wanted to see what other people have as well. Hit me up.

 

[Blacka Blocka Flocka]

If the new teleport works off of 4P+K cool.. Now just return the damage to the raijin throw. Also I'll be happy to play with you Takeda but I only have the xbox version

 

[TakedaZX]

If the new teleport works off of 4P+K cool.. Now just return the damage to the raijin throw. Also I'll be happy to play with you Takeda but I only have the xbox version

Yea, i just bought the Xbox version as well... but my power cord burned out apparently. I'll have to get a new one but if I do before DOA5U drops lets run some sets. I'll hit you up.

 

[Gultigargar]

Guess I'll chime in.

- I'd like 9P to not wall splat again.
- I'd like for them to change 66PP so that you can no longer throw him out of it even if he doesn't charge it. I'd also like to see 66PP/66P+K be safe.
- Like Tenryuga said, I think 6P and 6PK could do with less negative frames. It's incredibly frustrating to not be able to use 6PK against characters with grappler throws.
- I'd love to see the return of 3K's sitdown stun properties, but I think that's very unlikely.
- The return of his teleport might already have done this, but I'll say it anyway: I'd like for him to have a better wake-up game. It's incredibly annoying how many of his moves knocks his opponent down, but he doesn't really have good tools for dealing with downed opponents.
- I'd like for PPK/H+K/Sidestep K to not be useless. Ideally either return the knockback from DOA3, or the turnaround stun from DOA4.

Some general changes not necessarily specific to Hayate:
- I'd like for them to just drop the DOA4 system of stun threshold and launch height being connected and just return to having two launch heights; normal launch on normal hit and high launch on counter/high counter/stun. But again, probably not gonna happen.
- I'd like to see them return the feature where if you use a throw that only gives frame advantage and does no damage (Hayate's 236T, Ayane's 64T, etc.), then you get increased frame advantage on a counter or high counter throw.