Free Step Dodge

#4 Valuing strength in clutch & high pressure. Hwoarang has strength & high pressure in clutch. He can get high damage just off his armor crushes and can just put players in a vortex because of his frames. Now I look at Kazumi, with all the people I've played (Now they're not Take but they're good nonetheless) as Hwoarang, I never felt highly pressured. Maybe I said well let me watch for xyz but even if I lost...

It wasn't cause of her pressure or reliable damage. It was because I messed up or I became too predictable. Like I'm not disagreeing with you or Knee about the philosophy of the list. I disagree with the placing when I see Hwoarang, Heihachi, & Bryan play great in tourneys despite being challenging, while contradicting itself putting Steve & Eliza and such higher when they're just as hard.

@UpSideDownGRUNT Yes she hasn't changed. And I'm not disputing her placing. I feel she can be a A character with the tools she has for a tournament setting. I'm disputing who she's ranked above where I've seen Hwo and such more consistently than Asuka. If Hwoarang was in the same tier, I wouldn't have much issue. I'd only debate Kazumi after.

But seeing that Hwoarang is low and not even high B, this dudes almost low to near Gigas level. He doesn't suck that bad in a tournament setting where Gigas or the Bears (Who I almost never see at all in tourneys) are close to his level??? Nope. This is a debate (A great one at that and I hope this continues cause I love it. Gives me better insight) I shall continue until I for myself experience it.

That's because it's not a tier list. It's a "Tell us what underused characters we should play more often by putting them smack-dab in the middle tier" list.

I understand your point of view, having a different opinion is completely fine. But you got to look at characters objectively and think of what really makes character A stronger than character B, saying Eliza and Steve are on the same level of difficulty as Bryan or Hwoarang is just not true, at all.

This is heavily reflected on the contrast between Knee's tournamnet list and death match list. The death match list is more often what you would see in a common tier list, again, in a real life scenario.

S tier looking all sound and Hwoarang and Bryan being A tier, but that's because that list takes longevity into consideration; how long a character can remain optimal for an extended set. Notice how Jack falls from S tier to all the way mid B tier, the point is put across no better than in that example.

Jack is godlike in short, tournament specific configurations, again, taking PS4 into account. But in a FT10? In a death match? On PC? Hell no. Character's garbage.

This goes back to my first point revolving around simplicity and how characters outclass each other. You said Law, my main, is easy, for example. He's B tier, now, Dragunov is S tier. If you look at both characters objectively, you quickly start to realize there aren't many differences between the two, I reiterate, from an objective point of view.

Wr 2 is just a better f1+2, db3 is just a better Dragon Tail, ff1+2 is just a better ff3+4. Now you look at the complexity of the characters. Law is still a very beginner friendly character, but I honestly believe he's harder to play in this game than most people would think, with a requirement of DSS in order for his neutral, pressure and combos to be effective, also, instant slide is a thing, shit's hard, man.

Now Dragunov. f3 cancels and instant Wr 2, that's it. See what the point I'm trying to make is? Dragunov and Law's moveset are not really that different from each other, but Dragunov's tools just outclass Law's from almost every perspective, I can talk from experience. I also play Drag and I play him with the same mindset as Law, and the difference is ever so palpable.

Also, you misunderstood my point when I said Knee valued clutch and high pressure. I meant what tools you have IN the clutch and in high pressure situations, not how good a character's pressure is. Hwoarang is not good in the clutch, he doesn't have get out of free jail cards or physics-defying crushes; b1? You think that's better than AoP? Matterhorn? Relax stance? Can-cans? No chance, bud.

Now I look at your points and they're valid. I'm not saying your wrong in for example Law vs Dragunov and such. Law is objectively easy but considering how negative he can be and DSS is a pain...And yeah Hwoarang has no legit get out of jail card besides maybe B1 or B4 if they go for a high I think. d44's also a possibility if they go high.

But I still feel Hwoarang should still be up there. Just out of the fact that if we're talking about tourney's shouldn't results play a role? I feel Hwoarang's results should put him there. Not saying he should be S tier. But I feel an A tier's understandable. But again that's just my perspective. Similar to Steve/Eliza being hard but higher than Paul/Claudio who are 10x easier and more effective. After that I agree.

Just Kazumi being S & Hwoarang, Hei, Paul, Law & Bryan being significantly low but Steve, Eliza, Lili, And others being high is something I can't see. Not that Steve isn't an A tier or such. He's great but I feel what execution's required for Steve makes him hard af. Especially seeing he was dropped by some people before Taisei revived him.

Hey, man. A lot of it is subjective. I'd be repeating myself at this this point.

I see you online a lot, just, being a bumble king and whatnot. If you ever feel like it, shoot me an invite and we can talk about this subject in a more direct way.

I gotchu. I always like to bumble. It's how I get answers. + I still got some TFC prepping to do. 129th will not cut it for me.

Knee had an interesting perspective on a more "practical" Tekken 7 tier list, and I'd be interested in seeing something like that for DOA5LR, however, I still don't buy that Kazumi is S-Tier. The whole reasoning that she's easy to pick and play quite frankly is bullshit. Execution & difficulty to play isn't supposed to factor into a normal tier list, or else someone like Akira or Alpha-Patroklos would be low tier.

Even in a pick up-and-play fashion, someone like Katarina could wreck people in short sets thanks to high damage combo starters and scary CH tools. With that said, I do like that he went in a more practical direction with his tier list as opposed to the usually "theoretical" that gets tossed around (including in DOA).