on today's episode of touched by a bayman: shinryu learns the true value of friendship. and also how to do 130+ damage on one guess.
Seriously, are people aware of 8k and kp and how much ridiculous damage you can get from these guys? Because it's gross and unavoidable and may cause your opponent to question how a loving God could possibly create something like Bayman to punish them for their sins. Between 100 and 130 damage, pretty much unavoidable after possibly one hit, more usually two. A one guess combo for triple digits ain't too bad at all.
For the most part, the combo will look something like hold 3p, 8k, 8pp, p+k, then either delayed p+k to force tech (this is touchy, 8p may work better but it's hard to time this in general) or ground throw. Unfortunately, this combo suffers from the issue with Bayman's CB launch in that 3k 3p+k f+p generally won't connect properly. Technically the 8pp, p+k, p+k or 2f+p sequence will work off of any 8k hit, even raw, but a 17 frame high can be a bit difficult to use out in the open. You can also substitute kp for the 8k, but if you do or if 8k is the third hit in a combo you'll want to use 236p instead of 8pp then continue as normal as 8p will typically knock down at that point, the second p will whiff instead of launch and the combo is fucked.
Why is this so awesome? Once the 8k or kp hits, the opponent is screwed.* 8k causes an unholdable, backturned stun. If the opponent tries to stagger escape, they almost certainly cannot turn to block the 8pp in time. The cpu on fastest can, but in the rare case you find yourself fighting someone with that inhuman of a struggle response, feel free to use 236p, which should be unblockable. Bayman or Lei Fang might be able to struggle out and use a mid parry from backturned, but that's going to be very difficult for them. If the opponent doesn't struggle, this is actually good for them; 8pp will then connect as part of a combo, be subject to scaling, and reduce their inevitable damage considerably. The entire sequence I described, ending with ground throw, will net you about 103 (holy shit) points of damage on normal hit. If they stagger escape out of stun, however, they will eat the 8pp at full damage plus backturned revision, go up for exactly the same launch except with less damage revision as you've technically started a new combo, and so take closer to 130 (holy fucking shit) points of damage for the whole thing. (I think it's 84 for the 8pp, p+k, 2f+p plus whatever for the starter + 8k, around 38). This is a powerful sodomy to the confidence sphincter, the being punished for trying to play smart. And 130 damage.
To make things more confusing, kp does the same stun but it's shorter. On fastest, the CPU can guard 236p, but most humans should still eat 236p. The damage shouldn't be too much worse since you will have landed the k before the p. Of course, if they know they can struggle out and block they probably will. Backbreaker them for their trouble. This may also make them think they can do something about 8k stuns. This is good for you as I mentioned above.
TL;DR: hold 3p, 8k, 8pp, p+k, 2h+p. Pain and suffering for them, gleeful neck snapping for you.
*So here's the catch: first, of course is that these are high attacks. If you're using mid launchers after stuns consistently though hopefully this won't be too much of a problem.
More importantly, these attacks cause two slightly different stuns. In the case of 8k, the stun you want only happens if it catches the opponent while you're in closed stance (same feet forward, so you see your back and their front or vice versa). On a hold 3p stun you should have time to check this before 8k. If you happen to hit 8k in open stance, you'll get the same frames but the opponent will be pushed back further and you will whiff 236p or 8pp, which is bad. Whiffing 8p on its own is not so bad as you should be safe to stop the combo unless they'd like to walk into the second p or the offensive hold cancel; you can hit confirm 8p before committing to the second p, but the timing is tight to avoid whiffing the combo. So check (your stance) before you wreck (their shit).
I'm not 100% certain about the kp stun's requirements; I think that you want to hit this from open stance, as the k will change your stance to closed so p will then hit properly. So if you can stance check and you're in open and you'd still like to go for it kp may be the way to go. It's a little riskier as it's an extra opportunity to be held but you can always kk for a guaranteed ground throw or force tech. Once they eat one of these combos they will be highly encouraged to high or low hold to "safety."
Should you get the longer stumble stun, this isn't disastrous; you will not be able to combo but you will be able to run up on them with considerable advantage, and it will move them closer to the ever-looming wall. Running up will let you mix f+k, the 66p+k guard break, 66k, and of course 66f+p. Rolling up with 3p+k isn't a bad option either, as then you have hold 3p, guard break, and the roll throw. If the roll throw catches them from behind you should be able to force tech, which doesn't seem to work as well if it happens from the front. You may also be able to employ crouch dashes to get in close and have hold 3p, 3k, and 33f+p on tap. Need to test this more, but ideally this isn't going to happen. Shit happens in matches though so it's good to know your options.
Some additional notes:
Don't forget hold 3p changes your stance, so check after you hit, not before.
If memory serves, f+k will give you the limbo stun from closed stance. This means if you have 8k on tap you have the limbo stun on tap, so the opponent's choices are... poor, in this circumstance. 8k or f+k to 8pp/236p sucks however you slice it. In open you might be better off with 236p or 7k, but the kk/kp mixup isn't a bad deal. I think that kk will catch someone who tries to be cute with low holds.
Technically, 66p should work after 8k, but they can duck out of it. If you know they're going to stagger escape enough to get out of 8pp 66p should still catch them and give you a 236p launch, but again this is a nearly inhuman escape. However, after a kp it might be more preferable to use 66p+k for the guard break. Does 66p+k have any special back turned hit properties? I honestly don't know if it does. Might not be worth worrying about given most humans shouldn't be able to get out anyway.
Seriously, are people aware of 8k and kp and how much ridiculous damage you can get from these guys? Because it's gross and unavoidable and may cause your opponent to question how a loving God could possibly create something like Bayman to punish them for their sins. Between 100 and 130 damage, pretty much unavoidable after possibly one hit, more usually two. A one guess combo for triple digits ain't too bad at all.
For the most part, the combo will look something like hold 3p, 8k, 8pp, p+k, then either delayed p+k to force tech (this is touchy, 8p may work better but it's hard to time this in general) or ground throw. Unfortunately, this combo suffers from the issue with Bayman's CB launch in that 3k 3p+k f+p generally won't connect properly. Technically the 8pp, p+k, p+k or 2f+p sequence will work off of any 8k hit, even raw, but a 17 frame high can be a bit difficult to use out in the open. You can also substitute kp for the 8k, but if you do or if 8k is the third hit in a combo you'll want to use 236p instead of 8pp then continue as normal as 8p will typically knock down at that point, the second p will whiff instead of launch and the combo is fucked.
Why is this so awesome? Once the 8k or kp hits, the opponent is screwed.* 8k causes an unholdable, backturned stun. If the opponent tries to stagger escape, they almost certainly cannot turn to block the 8pp in time. The cpu on fastest can, but in the rare case you find yourself fighting someone with that inhuman of a struggle response, feel free to use 236p, which should be unblockable. Bayman or Lei Fang might be able to struggle out and use a mid parry from backturned, but that's going to be very difficult for them. If the opponent doesn't struggle, this is actually good for them; 8pp will then connect as part of a combo, be subject to scaling, and reduce their inevitable damage considerably. The entire sequence I described, ending with ground throw, will net you about 103 (holy shit) points of damage on normal hit. If they stagger escape out of stun, however, they will eat the 8pp at full damage plus backturned revision, go up for exactly the same launch except with less damage revision as you've technically started a new combo, and so take closer to 130 (holy fucking shit) points of damage for the whole thing. (I think it's 84 for the 8pp, p+k, 2f+p plus whatever for the starter + 8k, around 38). This is a powerful sodomy to the confidence sphincter, the being punished for trying to play smart. And 130 damage.
To make things more confusing, kp does the same stun but it's shorter. On fastest, the CPU can guard 236p, but most humans should still eat 236p. The damage shouldn't be too much worse since you will have landed the k before the p. Of course, if they know they can struggle out and block they probably will. Backbreaker them for their trouble. This may also make them think they can do something about 8k stuns. This is good for you as I mentioned above.
TL;DR: hold 3p, 8k, 8pp, p+k, 2h+p. Pain and suffering for them, gleeful neck snapping for you.
*So here's the catch: first, of course is that these are high attacks. If you're using mid launchers after stuns consistently though hopefully this won't be too much of a problem.
More importantly, these attacks cause two slightly different stuns. In the case of 8k, the stun you want only happens if it catches the opponent while you're in closed stance (same feet forward, so you see your back and their front or vice versa). On a hold 3p stun you should have time to check this before 8k. If you happen to hit 8k in open stance, you'll get the same frames but the opponent will be pushed back further and you will whiff 236p or 8pp, which is bad. Whiffing 8p on its own is not so bad as you should be safe to stop the combo unless they'd like to walk into the second p or the offensive hold cancel; you can hit confirm 8p before committing to the second p, but the timing is tight to avoid whiffing the combo. So check (your stance) before you wreck (their shit).
I'm not 100% certain about the kp stun's requirements; I think that you want to hit this from open stance, as the k will change your stance to closed so p will then hit properly. So if you can stance check and you're in open and you'd still like to go for it kp may be the way to go. It's a little riskier as it's an extra opportunity to be held but you can always kk for a guaranteed ground throw or force tech. Once they eat one of these combos they will be highly encouraged to high or low hold to "safety."
Should you get the longer stumble stun, this isn't disastrous; you will not be able to combo but you will be able to run up on them with considerable advantage, and it will move them closer to the ever-looming wall. Running up will let you mix f+k, the 66p+k guard break, 66k, and of course 66f+p. Rolling up with 3p+k isn't a bad option either, as then you have hold 3p, guard break, and the roll throw. If the roll throw catches them from behind you should be able to force tech, which doesn't seem to work as well if it happens from the front. You may also be able to employ crouch dashes to get in close and have hold 3p, 3k, and 33f+p on tap. Need to test this more, but ideally this isn't going to happen. Shit happens in matches though so it's good to know your options.
Some additional notes:
Don't forget hold 3p changes your stance, so check after you hit, not before.
If memory serves, f+k will give you the limbo stun from closed stance. This means if you have 8k on tap you have the limbo stun on tap, so the opponent's choices are... poor, in this circumstance. 8k or f+k to 8pp/236p sucks however you slice it. In open you might be better off with 236p or 7k, but the kk/kp mixup isn't a bad deal. I think that kk will catch someone who tries to be cute with low holds.
Technically, 66p should work after 8k, but they can duck out of it. If you know they're going to stagger escape enough to get out of 8pp 66p should still catch them and give you a 236p launch, but again this is a nearly inhuman escape. However, after a kp it might be more preferable to use 66p+k for the guard break. Does 66p+k have any special back turned hit properties? I honestly don't know if it does. Might not be worth worrying about given most humans shouldn't be able to get out anyway.
