WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
lolno
Force Techs ruin the game !!
- Thread starter Sachertorte
- Start date
If force techs in 3D fighters are glitches, then that would mean that forcing opponents in block stun and taking chip damage on wakeup by positioning a fireball at them with the correct timing in a 2D fighter is a glitch.
And yet the latter was accepted universally as a legitimate strategy in 2D fighters, because it helps you press the offensive advantage and force your opponent to guess the next oncoming mixup... all because the opponent put him/herself in a position to get knocked down, rather than play as carefully as possible to minimalize any chances of guessing. It wouldn't be rewarding for either player if the advantage was always reset to neutral when the skilled player is working to gain more chances to deplete the opponent's lifebar.
So why shouldn't a similar mechanic exist for a 3D fighter as mechanically sound as Dead or Alive? Well, there is an answer for that. But it's certainly not in the competitive player's favor, but to those who don't want to put the effort or the mindpower into utilizing this useful strategy as well as trying their best to avoid it, expecting their wins to be handed to them without adversity.
Those people are defined as scrubs... scrubs who create their own misguided rules what's "fair" or a "display of skill" in order to disguise their own weaknesses as opposed to accepting them and improving upon them. But even so, scrubs can change for the better, if they're willing to look past their frustration and their own selfishness to see the bigger picture.
@Sachertorte, I know I'm late replying to this thread. I'm rarely here as it is these days. And I want to believe you don't wish to be seen as a scrub, rather that you're simply frustrated. But consider the following things before you write me off as another "cheap faggot" who "ruins the game for everyone".
1) Dead or Alive does in fact have an RPS system. It's been a well-established staple of the game since its inception 20 years ago. Strikes, holds, and throws all run under this system. Strikes beat throws, throws beat holds, and holds beat strikes.
2) In a good heated battle, there's nothing more exciting to watch - or more personally satisfying - than seeing the fruits of your labor take the form of a comeback under pressure. But in order for this to happen, there has to be actual tension for the opponent getting pressured due to guessing incorrectly. It makes the victory all the more satisfying if the opponent being pressured is able to quickly adapt and capitalize on whatever mistake he/she can see the opponent doing, thus turning the tide... even if they have to work a bit harder on the fly to do so.
3) It's not so satisfying if both opponents always have a comeback mechanic available to them at all times, even in unholdable situations such as a knockdown. Could you imagine being able to use holds when knocked down? When knocked to a wall (DOA4, anyone?)? When getting juggled in the air? There would be no tension. No hype. Both players would be afraid to use any strike, because the fear of being countered at any time since there's no consequences for being put in stun. DOA would turn to a game where only throws would be the safest option to deal damage. And yet DOA has so many more options to deal guaranteed damage in the current state it's in.
I wish there was something I could do to quell your frustration, but I'm still learning the game too. If you'd like, we can further discuss things on a PM if you like. 'Til then, take care of yourself.
And yet the latter was accepted universally as a legitimate strategy in 2D fighters, because it helps you press the offensive advantage and force your opponent to guess the next oncoming mixup... all because the opponent put him/herself in a position to get knocked down, rather than play as carefully as possible to minimalize any chances of guessing. It wouldn't be rewarding for either player if the advantage was always reset to neutral when the skilled player is working to gain more chances to deplete the opponent's lifebar.
So why shouldn't a similar mechanic exist for a 3D fighter as mechanically sound as Dead or Alive? Well, there is an answer for that. But it's certainly not in the competitive player's favor, but to those who don't want to put the effort or the mindpower into utilizing this useful strategy as well as trying their best to avoid it, expecting their wins to be handed to them without adversity.
Those people are defined as scrubs... scrubs who create their own misguided rules what's "fair" or a "display of skill" in order to disguise their own weaknesses as opposed to accepting them and improving upon them. But even so, scrubs can change for the better, if they're willing to look past their frustration and their own selfishness to see the bigger picture.
@Sachertorte, I know I'm late replying to this thread. I'm rarely here as it is these days. And I want to believe you don't wish to be seen as a scrub, rather that you're simply frustrated. But consider the following things before you write me off as another "cheap faggot" who "ruins the game for everyone".
1) Dead or Alive does in fact have an RPS system. It's been a well-established staple of the game since its inception 20 years ago. Strikes, holds, and throws all run under this system. Strikes beat throws, throws beat holds, and holds beat strikes.
2) In a good heated battle, there's nothing more exciting to watch - or more personally satisfying - than seeing the fruits of your labor take the form of a comeback under pressure. But in order for this to happen, there has to be actual tension for the opponent getting pressured due to guessing incorrectly. It makes the victory all the more satisfying if the opponent being pressured is able to quickly adapt and capitalize on whatever mistake he/she can see the opponent doing, thus turning the tide... even if they have to work a bit harder on the fly to do so.
3) It's not so satisfying if both opponents always have a comeback mechanic available to them at all times, even in unholdable situations such as a knockdown. Could you imagine being able to use holds when knocked down? When knocked to a wall (DOA4, anyone?)? When getting juggled in the air? There would be no tension. No hype. Both players would be afraid to use any strike, because the fear of being countered at any time since there's no consequences for being put in stun. DOA would turn to a game where only throws would be the safest option to deal damage. And yet DOA has so many more options to deal guaranteed damage in the current state it's in.
I wish there was something I could do to quell your frustration, but I'm still learning the game too. If you'd like, we can further discuss things on a PM if you like. 'Til then, take care of yourself.
Last edited:
Mr Armageddon X
Active Member
God I wish I was on PS4 just so I could kick your ass and taunt you to high heaven while doing it.
Kuga
Active Member
This is just okizeme / wake up strat. I find forced tech system good because it's haldled well. Other 3D fighters offer different solutions that are far more broken than this. Here at least you have choice - you can tech roll and avoid damage. Look at Tekken and SoulCalubur - you have techroll catches there, and among them there are many that hit you if you're grounded, and hit you even harder if you techroll - there is no escape from damage so there isn't real choice in terms of what can you do in those situation. Here at least you have that choice.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Yeah i read about those in TZ. This one setup involves popping up a knocked down opponent for 20% juggle. Its just too frustrating to deal with.
.Dark-truth
Well-Known Member
It's not hard to avoidYeah i read about those in TZ. This one setup involves popping up a knocked down opponent for 20% juggle. Its just too frustrating to deal with.
Kuga
Active Member
T5 - Bryan's wall + d/f+3 - you have to take damage from sweep. Most famous example from them all. But yeah - agreed that traps were tonned down in later games - but theyre still there, and yeah we have backroll etc. but there are painful ways to deal with them also. In Tekken oponent that is grounded is always in shitty situation being exposed to potentially big adictional damage. Same or even worse goes for SoulCalibur. In DoA it's different imo.
Dark-truth
Well-Known Member
Mhm
Not trying to be smart or anything but the ground game in SC is different, it's much more forgiving. You have the option to quickly tech up and get up by pressing the guard button quickly...as long as you were not stunned prior and you have the risk of being thrown which is dangerous in SC5 since throw breaks actually deal damage to the escapee in the 5th one.
DOA5LR's ground game is actually a bit more forgiving that SCV's. A character like Yoshimitsu or Mitsurugi can aggravate you for days with their okizeme mix-ups. Don't get me started on Viola's or ZWEI's oki setups too. There are no wake-up kicks to worry about in SC so you can mindlessly pressure your opponents on the ground if you have safe oki options. The ability to block from the ground does help out though. Throw breaking is dead easy in SC with it just being a 50/50 between A-throw or B-throw, allowing you to break all standing/side, command or even crouching throws. Only back throws are guaranteed on about 90% of the cast. Throws are also reactable at i17 frames.
Kuga
Active Member
KasumiLover69: Just Ukemi allows you to escape some pseudo combos that are unescapable by other means, yes. But from what i can remember they will not save you from techtraps, and these are often very strong. Pyrrha for example with her 66B BE setups - you lie down - get hit, you tech - you get hit even stronger. Another subject is that way too many atacks hit grounded oponent (dunno, half movelist?) so its always extremely dangerous mindgame for grounded player.