FSD EXCLUSIVE: Perfect Legend interviews Team Ninja (Part 2)

Dahlsim

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All the more reason for players to collect an organised set of points, and hand them over in a good looking, printed document. Seriously, that will impress them.

Also there is a lot of pressure on the Dallas crew to include other people in the community into the contact process with Team Ninja - Sorwah, have you asked if there will be a player dinner or something like that you could attend?

I share Gill Hustle's optimism about it, that at least a variety of views and types of DOA player will be present.

Good suggestion on written points.

We don't feel any special "pressure" other than to run a well organized event. We've already contributed to making sure that FSD and "other people" are in the "contact process". I've personally pitched the idea to them of the value of supporting tournaments and competitions which I see that PL plugged here as well.

They've taken a BIG step for the new merged company by coming to Dallas and throwing in real support.
Although we've gotten decent support from Tecmo for several years in terms of prizes, this is more than was ever offered for prize and cash support before.

For the record (given some of the drama passed around) DoaCentral, DFWGames and NVGA are passing it ALL through to the players and fans of DoA and Koei-Tecmo, no administrative fees or house cut is involved here.
It's up to fans and players to demonstrate to the company that this makes sense for them as an investment.

I honestly expect nothing more at Dallas than Team NINJA being put on stage to say hi to everyone, and a quick Q&A about who was the person who shot the woman in the head at the end of DOA4 and such. Even though I will attempt to try, I don't expect them to be willing to have a sit-down interview with FreeStepDodge.

I believe Team Ninja will be hanging around most of the day other than a few scheduled events, so there is a PLENTY of time to interact with them and set things up. A lunch or dinner would be nice, though, lets see what they say.
 

Matt Ponton

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But you also need the hardcore players to give the game good word of mouth just like casual fans do in order for their friends etc. to say, ok, I've got to pick that game up.

The problem Dead or Alive as a series has is it's always been marketed as a Casual Fighting game. Tecmo confirmed this not only to me, but yourself as well. That it was because of the strides we had been taking that they were marketing Dead or Alive 4 as a hardcore fighting game. Unfortunately, the hardcore fighting fans were in a consensus that the game was far from being a hardcore fighting game, and as such ended up selling worse than any of its three previous iterations.

I nice comparison in this day and age is not only Street Fighter IV, but Mortal Kombat 9 as well. The first obviously had that perfect storm come about: It was 10 years since the last Street Fighter, arcades were now dead in the United States, and those kids had now grown up enough to reflect on nostalgia. They even reverted the game to a similar play style of SF2 - not picture perfect but similar style nonetheless. The latter (Mortal Kombat 9, to reiterate) has also been a blockbuster hit. MK9 is probably ab etter example since after the arcade die out they had not been making hardcore fighting game players a target in their design. They purposely were designing with a casual target audience in mind, and the game showed. Sure, like the DOA Community you had players who did take it hardcore, but it hardly sold to these audiences and casual users were starting to show brand fatigue from it. Then, due to the success of Street Fighter IV mainly, they decided to make their next version with the hardcore fighting game player in mind and they are certainly reaping their rewards. Not only did they design it with the target audience of a hardcore fighting game player, they were updating their game to compete with the changes the fighting game genre has added since their last hardcore game, showed A+ community involvement, amazing marketing for the game to bring in even the casual players who still just wanted another Mortal Kombat with blood and guts flying, post-release community involvement, and even flying players into their own studio to balance test (location test) the game to help get opinions from a hardcore fighting game player.

All this is well and good for NRS and Capcom, however, how does it relate to DOA? Well, in my personal opinion, the Dead or Alive franchise has been stagnant since DOA2. It hit a hardcore fighter appeal high in DOA3 (ending up to sell 6.5 million copies world wide) that also was picked up by casual gamers who to this day still tell me DOA3 looks just as good as DOA4 to them. However, the series needs to grow, and continuing to pander to the casual audience like they have for the past three Dead or Alive releases won't take them any farther than they already are heading. Again, it is of my opinion that the casual audience is fine with good looking, fluid, fighting game with lots of characters and unlockables. You focus the fighting system on the hardcore - as the casual won't care if Jann Lee's 66K is +1 or -35, all they care about is that the Dragon Kick looks f'n amazing when you knock a player off a cliff. By actually marketing to the hardcore audience, they in-turn will have more exposure for the game to have a casual audience become attracted to it - and maybe even join the hardcore scene in their own small (or large) steps. This series is different from the Street Fighter brand of fighting games, where a huge chunk of their audience was of the hardcore type. Where DOA has room to grow is in that hardcore type, my personal take is that the casual market is as good as the series is going to get. I would love to see Team NINJA work with the community in the future to not only benefit Team NINJA's sales, but their own community as well.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Excellent interview! I must say that Carl asked some excellent questions.

You touch on one of the biggest challenges Team Ninja faces I think, pleasing both the casual fan and the hardcore competitive fan. Truth is although the hardcore fighting fans form the critical basis for sales success, no fighter can succeed on that fan base alone.

You say causal fans will buy it anyway, but that's only partially true. Sure some will buy it for just "fan service and costumes and stuff" but not necessarily enough to make it a big hit.

Casual fans are not "dumb" fans.
Those casual players have to give the game good word of mouth just like the hardcore fans do in order for their friends etc. to say, ok, I've got to pick that game up.

I'm not saying they should ignore the casual crowd, nor do I think casual fans are dumb. Simply put, they just don't care about the competitive side of a fighting game. TN says they feel that guaranteed damage is harsh on beginners, but in reality, they will never know the difference if something is guaranteed or not. Not because they are dumb, but because they don't play the game for those reasons. This thought process TN has is hurting the core players of the game because they are removing tools from us. Nothing wrong with trying to appease to the casual crowd, but don't go nerfing the game to bring them in, that just makes things worse.
 

Gill Hustle

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Man Sorwah, you really are passionate about this.

Not to put pressure on you but if what Dhalsim says is true, I'm hoping that you get to make your point across to Hayashi and Co. the way you have been here the last couple of days.

:ayane:
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Very good points made throughout this thread. I agree that there is on the surface a challenge to appeal to both Casual and Hardcore, but I think Sorwah expanded upon this well in saying it is lacking primarily in hardcore appeal.

They definitely have to change their focus to the hardcore, or at least, the new paradigm of the expanded fighting game community. This is the first opportunity for them to release a game into a more unified fighting game scene, that is much more open to embracing new games and has a very active internal media covering games, players, and events.

I think they have the casual audience in the bag so far as it goes; there are many innovations to be made but so long as they keep developing their strong characters, story focus, and generally very good and accessible presentation, the casual player will have plenty to enjoy as they learn the game.

That said, there could be an argument for Team Ninja doing something to change the look of the game somewhat to really signal that it is different this time.

Of course, its the underlying game that has to advance. The fundamentals of DOA can stay the same, as they are excellent. It's a matter of looking at its peers (Virtua Fighter primarily) and learning how to marry the presentation and style of DOA to a super tight fighting system.

Once you have the competitive fighting scene on board, it has a life beyond casual appeal, and that will feed back to casuals that people are still playing the game and renewing interest, in a loop that supports both types of player.
 

virtuaPAI

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I agree with Mr. Wah. The absolute truth is, The casual gamer did not know there was major differences between Doa2 and Doa3, let alone Doa3 to Doa4. It was the Advanced players that notice these things, and are the ones who are asking for an indepth gameplay experience. The changes that TN are making are not changes that the game ever needed. TN needs to realize that there needs to be varying degrees of techniques and strats available to sustain a budding fighter. If they are so adamant in creating an experience that casuals can enjoy, than make a specific mode of play that caters to them(ie beginner mode or something), while creating a core game that will cater to those players who enjoy in excelling in advanced play(ie those who are entering the very tournaments they show up to).
 

Raansu

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Adding on to what VP said. I recall when DoA4 came out I floated around the xbox forums and many of the casuals felt the game was much more difficult than the older DoA's. IMO I think the game being so random frustrated the casuals just as much as the hardcore. The difference as VP said, is that the casuals don't know the difference of what made the games different. They play the game and say its the same as older DoA's just more difficult.

Tools given to players doesn't punish casuals. In reality it helps them even when they don't know it. Removing tools just makes it more random and frustrating for everyone.
 

virtuaPAI

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This leads to the question of where are they getting their info from? If they are getting it from their back yard, than they need to reevaluate their position. They are subpar players, and have been shown on numerous occasions to not be on our level. Our views should weigh a lot more when it concern this game. Just as it is the European tag players who can lead them in the right direction in making a good tag game....But it is interesting to know that when singles was good, so was tag :)
 

SkatanMilla

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As long as better stages, more costumes, stuns and holds are in the game.
Casual players will consider it to be a better game.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Adding on to what VP said. I recall when DoA4 came out I floated around the xbox forums and many of the casuals felt the game was much more difficult than the older DoA's. IMO I think the game being so random frustrated the casuals just as much as the hardcore. The difference as VP said, is that the casuals don't know the difference of what made the games different. They play the game and say its the same as older DoA's just more difficult.

Tools given to players doesn't punish casuals. In reality it helps them even when they don't know it. Removing tools just makes it more random and frustrating for everyone.

It was not "the game being random", you give casuals credit in understanding the game you don't normally; it was the difficult AI, especially Alpha 152. The most common complaint is that the boss is too hard, revealing that any person complaining about the boss is focused on the single player mode, and not a competitive player, as we only really care about 1 on 1 play.

This reinforces, as Skatan said, it needs to be easy to play and have lots of candy to enjoy. We like that stuff too of course! My biggest wish for this need is for them to create an all encompassing, campaign style story mode (greatly expanding on the ideas in Chronicle mode or MK9's Story Mode) so that such players can have something big to run through and feel like they are getting a lot of content in the single player experience.

So many players including the majority of game reviewers still mark fighting games on the single player experience, so it would be smart to make this as impressive, replayable and robust as possible - akin to modern shooters. All in addition to a solid game whose mechanical basis and balancing is about competitive multiplayer.
 

Raansu

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No, actually many players on the xbox forums back in the day complained about things being difficult/cheap online. Every single day I'd be on the xbox forums and there was 5 or 6 threads a day saying the same thing. Yes, Alpha was one of the many complaints(personally I thought alpha was a joke and even made a video for the xbox forums to help/show how easy she was to beat), but I'm referring more to online when I mention players complaining about the difficulty. Not a day would go by where people would complain about how unfair Hitomi is when I play her, when she's barely mid tier in doa4.

Point is, as have been said several times now, no matter what you do, casuals don't know whats going on in a fighting game. They just play to play it, and no matter what, they will always think something is cheap. So in the end, why take tools away from the game when the casuals don't even understand whats going on to begin with?
 

Rikuto

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Annnnnnnnd alpha being too hard ties back into "the game is too random" because "alpha is too random".

Even the most casual scrub can grasp a decent understanding of how a game works, even if its only on a instinctual level. When a casual gets frustrated with how hard something is, even when they are playing other casuals, it isnt because the game is too complex. It is because the game is bad.
 

Rikuto

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There are a thousand and one theories as to why Itagaki did it, but the fact is one month prior to release DOA 4 was a good game.

Itagaki was producer of the game, and he had everything solid removed from the game and released in its current form in a complete rush job.
 

XDest

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There are a thousand and one theories as to why Itagaki did it, but the fact is one month prior to release DOA 4 was a good game.

Itagaki was producer of the game, and he had everything solid removed from the game and released in its current form in a complete rush job.

But what amazes me even more is that now they have time instead of it being a rush job. And they're sticking to the decisions made in that one month. Unbelievable.
 

Matt Ponton

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When I asked Shimbori about it, granted there was a translation issue of clarification at the time, but his reply was simply "Itagaki likes fast paced games" (Which I honestly don't think that DOA2/3 was slow-paced) ", and Japanese Testers weren't liking the system, so it was changed".
 

virtuaPAI

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Since this is no longer Itagaki's project, The game no longer need to be made with his philosophies(even though it didn't hurt Doa1-3). We as a community are moving forward by having that conversation with Shimbori, and by continuing that conversation with the community.
 

grap3fruitman

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But what amazes me even more is that now they have time instead of it being a rush job. And they're sticking to the decisions made in that one month. Unbelievable.
This goes back to my theory that Team Ninja doesn't understand their own game. Hayashi's bread and butter is Ninja Gaiden and I don't think he cares much for DOA. Shimbori came onto Team Ninja when DOA2U was more-or-less done so he wasn't there for 1, 2 or 3 and isn't really familiar with them. I'm fairly certain that most of the staff that was influential in DOA's early life is off at Itagaki's new studio. The people that are left don't really understand the game so did they do anything significant for Dimensions? No, they gave us the same thing. They felt that everything was fine and they feel that way because they don't understand the game. That's one of the reasons I want to put together a set of education videos on 3.1 and narrate it in Japanese. I really want to reach out to the developers.
 
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