Help me learn Ayane

[LivingShadow]

As Hubbs already knows from his local matches against me, I'm currently scrub-level or lower in DoA: D.

Here's what I already know:

11/1133 is good for baiting.
Roll mixups
Small combos (and variations of the ones listed):
pp6pp k[6] h+k (ends backturned, sets up roll mixups)
pp6k2k k ppkkk (decent oki)
pp6pp k 3pk (meh)

General conjecture:
Pokes should be: 3p, p/pp, 2h+k, 4h+k, k, 2k/2kk
Gimmick/Yomi pokes: 236p, 214p, 8h+k2k/8h+kk, 3h+k
Punishes should be: 66k/236k, 33k, 33p, any viable combo

I think in general, I'm having problems with what I should be doing on defense and poke usage. That's probably just lack of experience.

 

[The HuBBs]

the main thing with ayane is to remember to abuse her safe moves. and continue to play the mx up game with her back turned. Also don't end every string against blocked opponent unless it leaves you safe. I don't know how many of her strings are still safe on block from doa4 in doad.

 

[LivingShadow]

the main thing with ayane is to remember to abuse her safe moves. and continue to play the mx up game with her back turned. Also don't end every string against blocked opponent unless it less you safe. I don't know how many of her strings are still safe on block from doa4 in doad.

Looks like I have some experimenting to do. Coming up with blockstrings now.

 

[Matt Ponton]

have the computer set to standing throw on reaction to help you out. After you do the blocked attack, instantly do a low kick or punch. the computer should be hit on hi-counter instead of throwing you. (The computer will crouch dash to gain distance which is why you want to do a low attack so that you know it was safe).

 

[LivingShadow]

Here's what I found worked when testing safe moves.

1: set cpu to Action and Reaction Block (standing and/or Crouching depending on what you're testing). If you don't set reaction to block it will only block the first hit of the string.
2: use the Move details bottom screen.
3: go through the moveset to see what the quickest startup is. (7 frames on standing throw (6 frames BT), 5 frames for crouching throw, 10 frames for standing punch, 12 frames for sanding kick)
4: go through the moveset again to see what the disadvantage on block for all the moves are.
safe moves are the ones with less disadvantage on block than 7 frames.

Ayane's safe moves are as follows:
kkk (-2 on block, only the last hit is safe)
3kkkk (-2 on block, only the last hit is safe)
p(-1 on block)/pp (-6 on block)
2p (-4 on block)
3k+h (-7 on block)
236k+h (+23 on block, cancelable)
1k+h (+19 on block)
BT p (-7 on blcok)

Technically safe:
k6

 

[The HuBBs]

I think you're looking at the stats the wrong way. You should tried and set the cpu to attak after block during your strings. that will tell you if its safe or punishable.

 

[LivingShadow]

I think you're looking at the stats the wrong way. You should tried and set the cpu to attak after block during your strings. that will tell you if its safe or punishable.

I just tested all the moves on that list again using Hayabusa set on Action: standing guard Reaction: standing throw. The only thing it eliminates is BT p. I'd probably get more results if I allowed for the 10 frames of a standing jab.

 

[The HuBBs]

throws still get beat out by jabs. thats why you should set it to attack because not everything is throw punishable.

 

[LivingShadow]

Okay then, testing against 10f jabs All of the above are safe add in:

ppp(-9 on block)
8k (-9 on block)
3k (-8 on block)
6k (-9 on block)
11/1133p (-9 on block)
11k (-6 on block)
6pk (-7 on block)
66p (-9 on block)
8h+kk (-9 on block)
p+kpk (+23 on block)
p+pp2k (+19 on block)
1133kk2k (+17 on block)
4p+k (+23 on block)
BT pp (-8 on block)

Of course, any of the ones marked + usually have a lot of startup so they can poke you out of it, but on block they're safe.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Again you are forgetting a key issue to judge safeness: range. This is why you need to set the computer's second reaction to attack or throw. also don't forget that the grappler class has faster throws by typically one frame.

 

[LivingShadow]

Again you are forgetting a key issue to judge safeness: range. This is why you need to set the computer's second reaction to attack or throw.

So if the move keeps them further away more minus frames are allowed for it to fall into the safe category? I guess that includes things like 4h+k.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Remember that a move has multiple frames where they can actively hit an opponent, and hitboxes are (typically) do not reach the entire screen.

So Ayane may be -9 but due to the range the blocked attack puts her from the opponent, the opponent's responding attack may not reach her. In addition, it may reach her by distance but maybe the first hit frame of the attack doesn't and it's the second or
third hit frame that reaches.

An example of range is force-teching a downed opponent with Bass' or this grants him an unholdable that guard breaks if the opponent blocks. Due to the range the force tech puts them at, what is typically a throw punishable attack (even though it guard breaks ) is now unpunishable unless the opponent does a perfect double crash dash into low throw without triggering their low offensive hold.

Lastly, remember that the Computer in sparring mode will get up one frame faster than is humanly possible, and it won't respond when put in backturned state for 5 frames slower than humanly possible. This only applies for Reaction/Second Reaction settings. If you set the sparring partner to an AI difficulty level then it follows standard game rules. Another example of this would be Bass' or juggle, if it juggles one frame before what would be an untechable it guarantees a pick-up, but it will whiff if the AI isn't set to a difficulty level. In addition, test his f+p: combo throw on a sparring partner set to Second Reaction: Guard. The AI will be getting hit by attacks greater than 15 frames of startup, something that any normal human would be able to guard by holding down .

 

[Zero254]

I believe something that may be more useless than userful is that she has a teleport counter she can only do under certain circumstances.

the purple butterfly teleport counter. She can do it against stage attacks such as ridley's shot or some animals in doa4.

She also has a good feint she can do with up+p for some decent mixups. You can fake out people into getting high counter thrown.

 

[The HuBBs]

ayane doesn't a teleport counter. thats kasumi.

 

[LivingShadow]

It's not a counter per se, more of a avoid. It only triggers on obstacles. I've seen it.

Here's a simple way to trigger it: Ridley stage, mid hold a fireball.

 

[Raansu]

Ya, that animation is just for the moving dangerzones. It has no other purpose other than to look fancy when countering those dangerzones.

 

[XDest]

Her only real safety is in P, 2P, 6PK and 3F+K. But characters in DOA4 never really had actual safety.

This is with assuming Ayane is nearly the same as DOA4. The main things you need to learn with Ayane is to use her movement potential. Exploit the midrange game. BT 6P is really fast, and can do about a third of a bar damage. BT 2K won't usually be punished if at max range if I remember correctly. 3F+K is also really nice for long range poking. As is 3P. If they're sitting there blocking, she still has ranged offensive holds too like BT 6F+P and 8F+P. Even BT F+P is pretty damn good if you get close enough. Change up your mid-range game enough so you can bait certain things and take advantage. Ayane's spins, backstance changes, rolls, and etc... are unique to the character, and she also has moves with great range to complement this. Take advantage of that fact.

Always think of direct stun->launch. She has nice damage off it, and can pull off regular juggle finishes from that. Don't extend your stuns and get into more and more guessing, it lessens your probability of getting damage off. Options like 4P, 9K and BT 4K can all be used pretty early in the stun chain and still receive some nice damage.

Any strings that end with her doing a spinning kick? Never use those. They're way too slow to be used in an actual match, they're supposed to simply look fancy. Even in terms of oki, they won't provide you with guaranteed oki when used in a juggle either. Hell, stay away from doing long strings period, way too easy to hold.

If I get any notations wrong it's because I haven't played DOA in like 3 and a half years.

 

[LivingShadow]

The notations look right, and looking at what you're suggesting Ayane's movelist seems to be more or less the same as DOA4 (some of the inputs changed but none of the ones you're talking about).

All around solid info, but I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting by stun->launch. I know that the standard combos I've been doing have been something along the lines of Stun->k->[6]F+K/ppkkk/1pk. Is there a more ideal way to do it?

 

[XDest]

Usually something simple like Stun -> 4P -> PP4PP7K. Or 6P (or any stun that puts you BT) -> BT 4K -> 4P -> PP4PP7K. Or Stun -> 9K -> PP6PK. You might need one extender for mid-kick variants if your initial stun didn't put you backturned, especially since frontturned 4K needs more stun to bounce enough.

Lots of stun extensions gets you killed. Way too much extra guessing for almost no reward potential. If there's anything you don't want in DOA, its to shift the risk reward ratio out of your favour.

Once again, if these specific combos don't work in DOA then forgive me, I haven't even played the game.

 

[LivingShadow]

I think I get the idea now. Those combos look valid, I'll have to go into training mode to determine which juggle I prefer.