Should the window for string delay be narrowed?

[Matt Ponton]

Brought up in a conversation with me and Rikuto, felt it would be best to get the community's take on it.

Should the window for delaying a string's next attack be narrowed, removed all together, or actually be increased?

I know there's a different window for each string as it goes from a move to move basis, but personally it just pisses me off in DOA4 with the amount of possible mixups and the string delay guessing game added already to the improbable attack guessing.

Your thoughts?

 

[Raansu]

That really all depends on how DoA5 plays out. As it stands, everything in DoA4 is a disadvantage on block, so imo free canceling and delaying strings is one of the few ways to really get around in the game since its built around 50/50's. Obviously I'd prefer DoA5 to not rely on it so much and to bring back the faster gameplay of doa3.1 though. So ya I guess I'd prefer the window on delayed strings be narrowed down a bit, but I think if DoA5 were to incorporate proper frame advantage or just any real advantage in general I believe people would use the delays less than they would in DoA4. I'd rather take the risk for frame advantage over delaying a string and getting counter blown.

 

[Rikuto]

Removed completely. People rarely think about it but it's bullshit and it's holding the series way back.


There isn't a single other 3D fighting game I can think of that allows you to delay every single move on 99% of the strings the way DOA does. There is a reason for that too.

It's so you can intelligently fucking defend! When a string stops in Tekken, VF, or SC you know that string is over. If it had frame advantage you have to deal with it, and if it was unsafe you can punish it. Moves can be either good or bad based off of these attributes. In DOA however, every single time someone does something you're playing a mixup that has nothing to do with your own personal reaction speed or knowledge of the game. This effectively makes every single attack in a string after the first one it's own mixup, on the simple basis that you don't know if its over or not.

Move doesn't have frame advantage? Shit it don't matter son, just delay that move and itl put him right into the same exact kind of mixup anyway. He doesn't know if you're gonna delay or cancel or what! You might as well delay it three times in a row, what's stopping you? Not taking any greater risk doing anything else.

Tom Brady once said "Why would you do anything in DOA 4? Everything is minus".

Well, this is why. Because even though everything is minus it doesn't matter. Because everything can be delayed and that creates the same exact pressure. The only difference is that it's in the middle of the string instead of at the end of it.

The messed up thing is, if you remove that delay component from DOA 4 it breaks an already broken game even more. It's one of the only tools in the game that lets you actually perform mind games with people. If you FIX the game and give proper frame advantage back to it though, these garbage delayed strings have no place in the game whatsoever.

When I see my opponent has stopped attacking, I want to actually visually recognize it and respond, not just fucking guess about it.


I know the reason why DOA does this too. It's so idiots who have no skill at video games can take an hour to mash out a single string and go "look at me, im doing cool stuff!" God forbid anything have slightly stricter timing.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I can't keep stressing enough on just how right DOA++ feels after playing DOA4. There's a teeny, tiny window for delay and the only moves that really have a delay are the moves with a :Link:. Those are very few and far in-between and a knowledgeable player would know to be weary of those attacks and their delay, that being the point of the :Link:.

 

[DrDogg]

Leave the delay in, just give me the ability to interrupt the string if you delay past a certain point. Tekken and VF both have delayable strings, but it's not uncommon to be able to interrupt during the delay with certain attacks. Obviously I'm not going to get a launcher or anything that leads to big damage, but it stops the person from delaying the attack. And in many cases, the attack that comes after the delay is unsafe, so the only time you use the delay is when you're hoping that last hit will connect. If it doesn't, you get punished.

My take on DOA5 is that it has to remain DOA. Team Ninja just needs to add another layer (or two or three) of depth on top of the standard DOA system. That way casual fans of the series can still play DOA like they have in the past, but competitive players can get around the triangle system, counters and whatever else we dislike about the standard DOA system.

 

[Rikuto]

Leave the delay in, just give me the ability to interrupt the string if you delay past a certain point.

You already can, it's just that it doesn't work very well. Every single move is going to have different recovery and a different window for how long you can delay it, so there is no way to visibly tell when you are safe to interrupt something. In other words, it's a guess. Further yet, look at certain characters like christie. The frames for something as simple as is are 9, 8, 10, 12, 14.

These punches are all unsafe, but because of how retard fast the followups are, how are you ever going to logically retaliate with something other than a guess? is -10, for example. If she stops there, I've actually got LESS than 10 frames to figure out she has stopped and retaliate, because just about any other character i use besides kasumi will be much slower than her.

Human reflexes just don't work like that.

Now if I'm focusing on an absolute stop in sound and movement coming out of her, it is possible to hit this window. If however, she has the ability to delay, it becomes flatout impossible to consistently do anything, thus making it a guess. A 10 frame window of reaction is difficult enough to deal with, delaying could well make it around a 5 frame window. Good luck seeing that every time.

Tekken and VF both have delayable strings, but it's not uncommon to be able to interrupt during the delay with certain attacks.

But not every single string. That is a huge difference. They are unique and can be picked out and dealt with. In DOA, it's just about every single string. The few that can't be delayed are all airborn.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Leave the delay in, just give me the ability to interrupt the string if you delay past a certain point. Tekken and VF both have delayable strings, but it's not uncommon to be able to interrupt during the delay with certain attacks. Obviously I'm not going to get a launcher or anything that leads to big damage, but it stops the person from delaying the attack. And in many cases, the attack that comes after the delay is unsafe, so the only time you use the delay is when you're hoping that last hit will connect. If it doesn't, you get punished.

-I must agree. The Delay was an issue only present in Doa4, but worked well in both Doa2 and Doa3. I say this because the better player knew not to excessively delay strings because there were plenty of built in true combos, unholdables and just frame holdables. Like you have stated, one would use a delay only in hope of the last hit connecting. If that failed, they were guaranteed to get punished.

My take on DOA5 is that it has to remain DOA. Team Ninja just needs to add another layer (or two or three) of depth on top of the standard DOA system. That way casual fans of the series can still play DOA like they have in the past, but competitive players can get around the triangle system, counters and whatever else we dislike about the standard DOA system.

-Exactly. Once Team Ninja adds multiple layers of depth to the system, such issues would not be a problem for us. It wasn't a problem until the pared down, bare-boned shitty release of Doa4.

You already can, it's just that it doesn't work very well. Every single move is going to have different recovery and a different window for how long you can delay it, so there is no way to visibly tell when you are safe to interrupt something. In other words, it's a guess. Further yet, look at certain characters like christie. The frames for something as simple as is are 9, 8, 10, 12, 14.

These punches are all unsafe, but because of how retard fast the followups are, how are you ever going to logically retaliate with something other than a guess? is -10, for example. If she stops there, I've actually got LESS than 10 frames to figure out she has stopped and retaliate, because just about any other character i use besides kasumi will be much slower than her.

Human reflexes just don't work like that.

Now if I'm focusing on an absolute stop in sound and movement coming out of her, it is possible to hit this window. If however, she has the ability to delay, it becomes flatout impossible to consistently do anything, thus making it a guess. A 10 frame window of reaction is difficult enough to deal with, delaying could well make it around a 5 frame window. Good luck seeing that every time.



But not every single string. That is a huge difference. They are unique and can be picked out and dealt with. In DOA, it's just about every single string. The few that can't be delayed are all airborn.

-Characters like Christie and Kasumi are unique in this regard. Ugh, Brady drilled it into my head over and over and over and over again,(which was a good thing, not complaining too much lol) how these were their pressure strings and how their whole game is based upon them being quick characters that can out jab you at every moment. This lead into many character specific counter strat discussions and breakdowns, and the use of frame advantage setups to offset their advantage. Like I have stated earlier, this worked well in both Doa2 and Doa3. Doa4 sucked so much elephant shit that it made us forget how such mechanics were not over powered and actually allowed for character diversity and depth.

 

[Rikuto]

They are fast characters who trade safety for speed, giving them that advantage. The problem is that someone like kokoro or hitomi can come along and be much safer, and that gives them the same exact pressure advantage as they are picking up the speed difference at the end of their last move rather than at the beginning of the next one. The second you throw the delay in there it becomes a crapshoot.

There is hardly any difference in the pressure mathematically after the first attack in the string. It just mentally affects people a different way because they are visually seeing something faster coming out of kasumi and christie, and even some of the more competent players are not taking the recovery part of the data into account for all parties involved.

They all put you into the same exact situation with some few very exceptions (someone like bass who is super unsafe and super slow, for example).

Even in a game like 3.1 this delay was not beneficial. Characters could have been given more interesting options to compensate, or at least dumbed their delayable strings down to a few exceptions.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The frame disadvantage from a cancelled string doesn't occur until the recovery animation has completed. The delay is always less than the recovery animation. The disadvantage doesn't begin once the attack connects to the guarded opponent.

 

[Rikuto]

Since another attack can still come out in the string and beat out anything a person can potentially do, of course there is no disadvantage until after the window for the delay has passed and the attack has exited its recovery frames. Problem is how the hell you going to nail down that timing on every single possible cancel point on every possible string in the game?

The point I was making though, is that you will see christie players completely cancel out of strings, go into that heavy disadvantage, and then keep on attacking and manage to get a CH because that window is so retarded to catch. You see hitomi players doing the same thing and getting away with it, and because their moves are safer on cancel it effectively makes their next string opener faster as well (reading comprehension check: still not as fast as the defender on paper, that is not what I am arguing), thus making the window still just as retarded to catch.

It is a guess.... a senseless guess that does not reward reaction time or knowledge of the character whatsoever. I'm finding it difficult to believe you guys actually think that's good for a healthy game. Who cares if that's how it's been since DOA 2. It's a shitty mechanic, dump it. Bad is bad.

Why should anyone be content to keep something that does more harm than good?

 

[DrDogg]

But we have sidestepping in DOA5 according to Team Ninja. It's not out of the question to think that you'll be able to sidestep mid-string (or at the very least, the end of a string). And I would hope that if someone delays, you can step to avoid the next attack.

If the delay in a string is so short that you only have 5 frames to react, then it's not much a delay and there isn't really a mind game going on there. Sure, the character may be unsafe after each attack in the string, but that's only on paper. In reality, each attack is safe except for the last one. Think of it like that and what's the problem? It's no different than an attack being safe due to distance or the fact that it recovers crouching or something.

If delays remain in the game, it can still be good. If delays are removed, it doesn't really make the game any better.

 

[Awesmic]

Going by these posts, it's almost as if you guys are suggesting I should drop Christie because all my efforts in winning matches with her consistently were entirely illegitimate and based purely on dumb luck. Well, I got news for you. It sure as hell wasn't.

I, of all people, should know dad-gummed well how much I struggled with Christie since the patch back in February '06. She was nothing like 4.0... what with a damage output that's not up to snuff with most of the cast (but more useful stuns in her stance), manipulating Christie's jab pokes could only get me so far-- she gets predictable that way. She struggles with heavyweights on point-- especially Spartan. And why? Her most damaging options rely heavily on air juggles, which mean nothing to the heavy weight classes. She also doesn't offer much in the way of crushes, and compared to Helena's more mobile stance, you literally have to read two steps ahead as far as the ground game is concerned. For the most part, I should be more afraid of the damage I'll be getting dealt from everyone else than the other way around. I have to use the environment more effectively than most of you to scrape by. You can't tell me that all my consistent wins with Christie involved only manipulating jabs, guys. That's bullshit, and it's an unrealistic tactic to use constantly against players that know what they're doing. I promise you that. I have other tools, you know.

Sorry everyone, normally I'm intimidated and tend to back away from discussions like this, but this time I don't care about that. Whether I'm right or wrong, I had to get that out of my chest. As a Christie player who's always been taught that 4.1 Christie was low-mid tier, I'm offended by this "manipulating jabs make Christie teh broken" farce that y'all seem to be implying, especially coming from the very people who seemed to act like my efforts of getting as far as I had at D.I.D. 7 were legit. If I'm taking this the wrong way, then I apologize.

 

[DrDogg]

Going by these posts, it's almost as if you guys are suggesting I should drop Christie because all my efforts in winning matches with her consistently were entirely illegitimate and based purely on dumb luck.

That's not what I took from the conversation at all... >_>

 

[grap3fruitman]

Everyone download Mame, DOA++ and the TPS bios needed to run the game and join me in the best DOA game you've never played and see how the lack of a string delay feels in a DOA game.

Her most damaging options rely heavily on air juggles, which mean nothing to the heavy weight classes.

That's a fault of DOA4 and not your character. You can't really create any situations on the ground that your opponent can't get out of. Plus trying to stun your opponent enough in order to launch high enough is a struggle in itself, again a fault of DOA4.

 

[x Sypher x]

Everyone download Mame, DOA++ and the TPS bios needed to run the game and join me in the best DOA game you've never played and see how the lack of a string delay feels in a DOA game.

Sure! I'd love to play. Now when you say to join you, does that mean it supports online matches? Because if not then I might not bother. Come to think of it though, there's a thread around here about how to download DOA2U. I gotta look for that >.>

 

[Rikuto]

Going by these posts, it's almost as if you guys are suggesting I should drop Christie because all my efforts in winning matches with her consistently were entirely illegitimate and based purely on dumb luck. Well, I got news for you. It sure as hell wasn't.

I, of all people, should know dad-gummed well how much I struggled with Christie since the patch back in February '06. She was nothing like 4.0... what with a damage output that's not up to snuff with most of the cast (but more useful stuns in her stance), manipulating Christie's jab pokes could only get me so far-- she gets predictable that way. She struggles with heavyweights on point-- especially Spartan. And why? Her most damaging options rely heavily on air juggles, which mean nothing to the heavy weight classes. She also doesn't offer much in the way of crushes, and compared to Helena's more mobile stance, you literally have to read two steps ahead as far as the ground game is concerned. For the most part, I should be more afraid of the damage I'll be getting dealt from everyone else than the other way around. I have to use the environment more effectively than most of you to scrape by. You can't tell me that all my consistent wins with Christie involved only manipulating jabs, guys. That's bullshit, and it's an unrealistic tactic to use constantly against players that know what they're doing. I promise you that. I have other tools, you know.

Sorry everyone, normally I'm intimidated and tend to back away from discussions like this, but this time I don't care about that. Whether I'm right or wrong, I had to get that out of my chest. As a Christie player who's always been taught that 4.1 Christie was low-mid tier, I'm offended by this "manipulating jabs make Christie teh broken" farce that y'all seem to be implying, especially coming from the very people who seemed to act like my efforts of getting as far as I had at D.I.D. 7 were legit. If I'm taking this the wrong way, then I apologize.

You are taking it the wrong way buddy. And you never need to be intimidated by anything I or anyone else says.

What I was saying was that Christie/Kasumi has a certain kind of mechanic they can exploit to create a really dumb kind of pressure that people recognize and get annoyed by, but other characters like Hitomi/Kokoro have the same mechanic built in just without the speed on the initial attack. This makes it equally frustrating but not as immediately recognizable to the untrained eye.

I was not singling out any particular character or person, I was just saying the system itself is stupid and should be revamped. If it was ripped out of DOA 4, as I said, it would not only break your character but the game as well. Well, worse it is already broken.

I don't believe DOA 5 needs this mechanic though. and I believe it holds the game back greatly as it removes logical defensive action and simply adds a guess as to when a string is over or not. It's not necessary when you have so many other solid mechanics to pull from. Some strings should have delays, yes, but not all.

If the delay in a string is so short that you only have 5 frames to react, then it's not much a delay and there isn't really a mind game going on there.

True, although that situation to kind of specific to Christie/Kasumi. Those chicks have really fast jab intervals. Someone like Hitomi has a much larger window to work with, and im guessing the actual window for the delay on a lot of these moves is around 3/4ths of the recovery frame time at least. Think about this from a defenders point of view though.

She's there, ticking you over and over, canceling at random intervals, and just keeps on starting up again. Sometimes she tick throws you into a reset. Maybe thats her entire goal, to keep reseting you over and over again.

So how do you logically get out without either guessing an interrupt point and probably getting CH, or guessing a counter?

Well you'll have to do one or the other, and either is a guess. You're certainly not going to be reacting to it with any consistency, and even if you trained yourself to react to one particular string you'd still have to memorize the delay points on every single other string in the game.

Sure, the character may be unsafe after each attack in the string, but that's only on paper. In reality, each attack is safe except for the last one. Think of it like that and what's the problem? It's no different than an attack being safe due to distance or the fact that it recovers crouching or something.

The reason it is different is because when an attack is safe at range, you are at range and can logically recognize it is safe as it happening.

When hitomi starts her karate mixup bullshit, you have no idea when it is going to end since that delayed attack could come at any time and that forces doubt. It might come or it might not, there is no way to tell without guessing. It's not something you can just wait and see on consistently and feel safe doing.

But we have sidestepping in DOA5 according to Team Ninja. It's not out of the question to think that you'll be able to sidestep mid-string (or at the very least, the end of a string). And I would hope that if someone delays, you can step to avoid the next attack.

This would be nice and I really do hope that SS is effective enough to deal with it in DOA 5. That could well be the solution since it's actually a dedicated side dash now instead of a casual freestep.

If delays remain in the game, it can still be good. If delays are removed, it doesn't really make the game any better.

Disagree, but I can see where you're coming from with the sidestep remark at least. At the very least the removal/shortening of delays would make the online play substantially less ghetto, such as it is. Well actually, no it wouldn't. It'd still have doa players lol.

Anyway, I've said what's on my mind about this, now I'm just confusing myself because DOA uses fucked up circular logic. This is what happens when you try to win rock-paper-scissors every time. It's like telling someone you know how to divide by zero without running out of paper.

 

[Allan Paris]

The delayed strings should remain, but I wouldn't mind the window on them to be narrowed. You can hold once you are out of a jab-jab guard stun, you don't have to stand there and watch a string advance. Yes, there many different strings in this game, and yes theorectically if people used all those strings in a strategic manner it would be very hard to play against. However, that is not the case, no one, not even the top players use every string that any of the characters have. So, watch which strings are used and reacting to them after jab-jab or any string that doesn't guard stun, that is not that hard.

I do understand the issue with Christie, Brad Wong, and Lisa to name some other characters that have this problem. Kasumi, no so much, playing against better players I get punished faithfully for dealying strings. The only string that I may get away with is her or 3 and it depends on the situation when I do get away with delaying them where it causes a problem where you can't interrupt it. Everything else she does and it is delayed is tolerable. I also believe that because of Lisa's and Brad Wong's move properties along with their hitboxes allow them to be very annoying with their string delays.

Christie, I feel your pain on this one. She is by far the best character to do this and get away with it, no punishment at all. It's so ridiculous with her that she can free cancel out of certain strings and still beat out characters when she starts a new string. Still, that doesn't make a great character, just annoying in some cases. She is still shit and very easy to deal with once you understand that all you have to do is look at the strings that are being used frequently and react to them. In Christie's case, you'd have to hold more than jab to interrupt her.

Hitomi and Kokoro, I personally don't see them having this problem. Even when I am not playing with Kasumi, I can poke in between their delayed strings just fine. Still, for them you just hold the string that you see coming. A simple jab can be placed in between Hitomi or Kokoro's strings when they are delyaed. I do this to them too many times to believe that you can't do it to them. I also can do it to the rest of the cast, except for Christie.

If you are playing with a slow character (11i+ jab) then you will have a difficult time poking at delayed strings. You will have relay moreso on holding the said string. I think that's fair, they are slow characters and not meant to jab in between things. Their game is else where and, not so much with striking.

Delayed strings are the least of problems, I have played against lesser to greater players and, I have never had a problem with delayed strings. This topic is funny, at the end of it all this just shows how DOA 4 is a bad game mechanically, for the millionth time. Only with Christie that I see has problem with this but, I have found ways to approach her and deal with it. Brad Wong and Lisa are the same but not as bad as her.

I will also say that, for me to interrupt in between delayed strings, I have to be paying full attention. When I am chill I can't time it all that well, but I can still do it, just not as much as I could when I am paying attention.

 

[Rikuto]

That's because you're anticipating and making educated guessing Allan.

You're doing it well, but you're still doing it. lol

 

[UncleKitchener]

No need take them out of the game entirely, but just shorten them and have them attributed to not all available strings. Shorter strings would benefit more from the mechanic than the longer one. The current window for these is too damn big and it just makes the developers look lazy.

In Tekken, it's also possible to SS some of these attacks sometimes, but require attention and timing, so maybe when DOA5 gets decent SS, you could try and avoid these. Actually, VF is a better example, because SS string delays can open up some avenues for the defending player to turn the table around.