DOA5U "Prepare" - Ayane General Gameplay Discussion

[iHajinShinobi]

Alright, so EmperorCow has brought something very important to my attention about Ayane's changes in 1.04.

"2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K: Counter Hit and above advantage changed from +23 to +18F".

"it seems that the 2H+K nerf not only affects her frames in stun .. but also the fastest SE frames

this means that the 6P and standing P after it may no longer be as guaranteed as they are

in my opinion I think thats a massive nerf

and it will hurt her quite a bit

especially since she doesnt have many tools to expand stun"

She does have tools to stay in the threshold, but most are her mid punches, only one solid mid kick while facing forward (3K, BT6K for sitdown stun) for mix up, outside of stun > launch (while stun > launch is solid, it's not her only way to net her damage). She would be losing lows that generally are favorable for threshold for her, which is actually quite a blow to her tools for Critical stun threshold.

I wasn't thinking about that as much until he mentioned this to me, now that I actually think about it, it actually is a pretty nasty nerf. This makes her 6K2K less effective if 6K2K hits because players will just stagger out of it and she'll lose her reward. This is not good for the character at all.

If 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, and 33P2K are all +18, this literally means that Ayane has nothing guaranteed after stun on the fastest stagger escape. Meaning there is no reward for landing a neutral or counter hit, at all. She won't be able to land a neutral P, 6P or 6K at all anymore as a mix up. That's bad.

What I propose we do about this; I'll send a tweet to Shimbori and Team Ninja on Twitter, then I will need all of you to retweet my tweet to both Shimbori and Team Ninja. EmperorCow said that if more Ayane players voice our opinions about this, then the possibility of that change will NOT actually stick and her +23 on stun will remain. Shimbori often listens to EP (he's the reason why Ayane has her back turned Critical Burst), so the chance of this being successful are quite high.

I want everyone to tweet this bit here; Ayane's 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K should retain their +23 advantage in stun. +18 would give Ayane no reward on stagger.

Retweet that to Shimbori AND Team Ninja, in seperate tweets. Please spread the word about this so that we'll have success folks. The character is truly fine as is, and has no actual reason to recieve anything that's going to hurt her game in the long run.

Their Twitter pages;

https://twitter.com/shimbori_x

https://twitter.com/TeamNINJAStudio

 

[Aerospark]

What's Shimbori's twitter? e3eb I'll tweet it to Team Ninja since I don't have the other person's twitter..
Edit: Do I retweet, tweet, or both? :0

 

[iHajinShinobi]

What's Shimbori's twitter? e3eb I'll tweet it to Team Ninja since I don't have the other person's twitter..
Edit: Do I retweet, tweet, or both? :0

https://twitter.com/shimbori_x

Retweet, please.

 

[Aerospark]

I retweeted your tweet a moment ago! I'm kinda at a dumb right now lmao. Should I tweet the Ayane's 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K should retain their +23 advantage in stun. +18 would give Ayane no reward on stagger. bit on my twitter as will or retweet yours?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

You can do both, honestly lol.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I feel like this is just the direction they want the game to go in. Stun lengths have pretty much been nerfed in general in from 5 to 5U and it looks like they want to just keep going with it. Pretty dumb, but I think they made this change with the intent of shutting down stun extension.

 

[Tenryuga]

I feel like this is just the direction they want the game to go in. Stun lengths have pretty much been nerfed in general in from 5 to 5U and it looks like they want to just keep going with it. Pretty dumb, but I think they made this change with the intent of shutting down stun extension.

Indeed this is pretty retarded. That's what they did to Kokoro and most sitdowns that used to guarantee launchers. Anyways as much as I dislike Ayane I don't like seeing exceptionally designed characters get ruined so I'll retweet your tweet Hajin.



P.S Help Ein get 14i 6P+K and 13i 4K back plz.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Retweeted the post. There's nothing wrong with Ayane to justify a nerf like this.

 

[Ael]

So, TN build solid characters and decide to go backwards and nerf the living hell out of them. Seriously, what is wrong with this development team? Instead of building a competitive and balanced roster, they think that nerfing the good characters will help balance the remaining struggling characters' flaws when that just does the opposite and doesn't help our community grow at all.

Buff the struggling characters, tweak the better characters, keep the best characters as they are. Is that so hard to do, seriously?

I don't really use these moves much in matches, but I see no reason for why TN would feel a need to do this to Ayane. Retweeted because I don't want TN to have other funny ideas and ruining Ayane even further. I'll ask whomever I know to retweet also. e.e

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Thanks Ael.~

 

[Force_of_Nature]

So, TN build solid characters and decide to go backwards and nerf the living hell out of them. Seriously, what is wrong with this development team? Instead of building a competitive and balanced roster, they think that nerfing the good characters will help balance the remaining struggling characters' flaws when that just does the opposite and doesn't help our community grow at all.

Buff the struggling characters, tweak the better characters, keep the best characters as they are. Is that so hard to do, seriously?

I don't really use these moves much in matches, but I see no reason for why TN would feel a need to do this to Ayane. Retweeted because I don't want TN to have other funny ideas and ruining Ayane even further. I'll ask whomever I know to retweet also. e.e

Sometimes TN even likes to nerf the weaker characters and buff stronger ones just for shits and giggles. SMH...

IMO TN shouldn't even bother to touch character balance until 5U has been out for at least 9 months - A year.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Sometimes TN even likes to nerf the weaker characters and buff stronger ones just for shits and giggles. SMH...

IMO TN shouldn't even bother to touch character balance until 5U has been out for at least 9 months - A year.

This, except for the Rachel BS, lol.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

This, except for the Rachel BS, lol.

Indeed, but I actually agree with the Rachel nerfs in 1.03 because she was too braindead good, even if she was beatable by other characters. To top it off, Rachel's still good after the nerfs and remains a dangerous character.

I personally would like it if TN leaves Ayane as is. She's in a good spot right now. 1.04 is unnecessary for her.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Indeed, but I actually agree with the Rachel nerfs in 1.03 because she was too braindead good, even if she was beatable by other characters. To top it off, Rachel's still good after the nerfs and remains a dangerous character.

I personally would like it if TN leaves Ayane as is. She's in a good spot right now. 1.04 is unnecessary for her.

I meant pre-1.03, post 1.03 was definitely needed for Rachel.

 

[Female Tengu]

IMO TN shouldn't even bother to touch character balance until 5U has been out for at least 9 months - A year.

Naah, with these days peoples internet activitiy and spaming twitter accounts from devs, claiming that a few people form a majority who pretend what's good for the game (you know, the "she/he is OO!!!! nerf hoooooer/hiiiiiim!!!" people), balancing etc, this is simply not possible anymore.
Sure some character were indeed far too easy to use (and to win with, a.k.a. Rachel) but if only one character steps out of the line this automatically includes "Let's buff/nerf/tweak anything else which is actually not needed".

It's insane sometimes. As soon as you adapt or create/find nice way of using your character more deeply, a new update is out...always with a chance of ruining/changing some of your findings. Sure this is a natural process going on in fighting games, but the timeframe between these updates makes it hard to adapt to all that.

Bottom line: I agree with you

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Comfirmation on 1.04 changes:

- 4P, BT4P and BTPP6P's launch height have been restored. I don't consider this a buff, but a reset to it's former glory.

- 6P's damage is indeed at 18. This means that our 6P will no longer out priortize other i13 mids due to damage. Now, it'll either clash or someone will beat someone out on frame advantage. Although 6K is 20 damage, so we will have to use it more than before now.

- 6PK and PP6PK's damage is really nice. The damage increase from 26 to 30 actually makes quite the difference, especially when a wall is involved.

Example: 66KK4 > Free cancel > PP6PK = 78 on neutral hit now. Shifting from BT to face foward also implies that you will be able to set up okizeme or back away A LOT faster than you would after the generic BTPP4PP7K BnB by walls. I've been working this in my game for awhile now after finding out that 6PK's damage would increase, it's really helpful.

- 3P's delayable frames are "slightly" less than they originally were, but definitely nothing too drastic. You can commit to it and still delay a follow up or free cancel mix up. But the window for that huge delay isn't there anymore, it's just moderately large now. You will still have to respect this strike and it's mix ups. 3PP being -3 on neutral hit is also a plus because it's no longer -9. So Ayane is no longer left at such a risk at neutral. Keep in mind this is on neutral hit, not counter hit or on block.

- 4P~K, BT4P~K and BTPP4P~K's increased distance is fucking amazing. Midscreen, you are sent flying to the other side of the screen, literally (fullscreen). And if a wall/object is even in 4 meters distance, you are sent flying into for 10+ damage more.

Example: Counter hit 3PP > BTPP6P~K on a feather to mid weight = 85 with a wall if it's in distance (75 midscreen).

This is a huge buff for Ayane. This means a couple of things, 1) It forces opponents to work their way into strike range all over again from fullscreen. 2) Walls have become Ayane's best friend now, walls have always been beneficial for her. But now, this is just insane. No one is safe in the Home stage at all anymore, they already weren't before, but holy shit I love this. The same applies to her 236K drill kick, making even THAT a better reason to use it for whiff punishment "now". Speaking of 236K....

- 236K, I always said "Don't use it", well....now I want people to use it, lol. For a few reasons;

1) 236K's distance was increased. Before, I shrugged it off and said "this is stupid", but I'm really thinking about the increase to it's wall distance. I did 3H+K > 236K by accident while attempting 3H+K > 66KK4 BT7K (3H+K > 236K is actually really old but it will be quite significant to play NOW) and the dummy went flying into the wall. What made me rethink things about 236K is--3H+K > 236K hits at all ranges for 3H+K on hit. It's 39 damage on neutral, 49 with a wall. With a close hit it's 47 and 57 with a wall, neither are anything significant (but damage is damage).

However, MY thing with this is, that this shit sets up solid okizeme midscreen. If opponent's tech after the 3H+K > 236K, Ayane is left +0 and she will beat out any strikes. If they don't tech up, then 2H+K will hit them for free and leave Ayane at +18. And, the fact that 236K will crash players into a wall at a farther distance is a plus too, so it's really a win win situation nonetheless. A buff.

- 6K2K, 2H+K, 3PK, 33P2K and PP6K2K: Our efforts with tweeting Shimbori and Team Ninja to leave their hit advantage at +23 was a failure. It is +18, and +11 at fastest stagger. HOWEVER, the more I think about it, I'm not really considering this a nerf at all. Just a "balance change" because even if you stagger the 6K2K low sweep, Ayane is left +11 frame advantage.

So one of two things will happen now, either option A, or option B. Option A means you will be guessing between fast launcher (i14 to i15 frames ideally), fast strikes (i10 to i13) or a throw. Option B means Ayane can continue her pressure if you stagger, because she'll be at frame advantage, lol.

- 8KK's guard advantage being -20 on block is irrelevant.

- 6H mid kick's change is irrelevant, all that changed was it's camera angle -_-

- 2K is -2 on neutral hit, not sure what Team Ninja wants players to do with their neutral 2K's on neutral "yet" but it'll be figured out soon.

The only real nerf Ayane recieved was the following;

- BTPP6KK4 can be crouched on reaction now like 66KK4 can. This will actually hurt our BT pressure. I'm still working on something to keep it very viable, but needless to say, for the first time, I'm actually not happy about this change, at all.

 

[His Reverence]

Overall, not bad. Not bad at all.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Just came home from casuals and first playthrough of 1.04 Ayane.

4P now always guaranteeing a juggle on any launch is really fucking nice! One of my big complaints when playing with Ayane in 5U back in September is that 4P seemed inconsistent with connecting BT PP4PP7K & BT PP6PK juggles on Lower critical levels. Now it's almost identical to how it was in vanilla (actually it's better because BT PP6P~K can now connect even on 4P's lowest launch heights).

4P~K/BT 4P~K & BT PP6P~K blasting back even further is bloody amazing. I've fairly recently started to develop a more turtle-oriented Ayane and this is a very nice buff! Makes her keepaway game just that much more dangerous. I can now blast opponents into walls, or off of cliffs from around mid-screen. Lost World and Ends of the Earth are gunna become even more friendly to Ayane than before along with any stage with easily accessed Danger Zones such as Hot Zone or Scramble (technically the old knockback distance was enough for easy wall slams in Home).

The buff to 236K is pure Lols. I now feel encouraged to use this shit to blast people off of cliffs on Lost World or Ends of the Earth.

I noticed that 6P lost 4 dmg, whereas 6PK gained 4 dmg, so the damage was just moved around really in order to keep 6P's damage consistent with most other 6P's.

2H+K and its variants getting nerfed can be a little troublesome for opponents who SE often and well since P is now the only thing guaranteed on fastest SE (meaning the opponent can pretty much SE then block anything else). However, the 2H+K variants still provide good advantage on hit and set up a strong mix-up situation.

The changes to 3PP are pretty insignificant, though being -3 on hit (-4 in open stance) is nice. Though this move is almost always either blocked or connecting as a Counter Hit.

The buff to 2K is cool because it was -6 on NH making it almost completely useless. Now that it's -2 it's now slightly less useless and you can try to jab after a 2K connecting on NH.

The nerf to BT PP6KK4 is annoying because this string is almost no better than 66KK4 now. Well, it's still good, but pretty much anyone can just high crush the 2nd K on reaction just like with 66KK4. I don't like this change because this was a strategic pressure tool compared to normal 66KK4 (which gets spammed to hell by most Ayane players).

However, all-and-all I'd say that Ayane was buffed more than she was nerfed especially if you have solid turtling skills with Ayane.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

^ I already gave the breakdown for everything. XD Also, BTPP6P~K has always connected on lower launch heights in Vanilla. That's not actually new.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Lol, I can give my thoughts too y'know! BT PP6PK connected after a lowest height 4P launch, but BT PP6P~K usually dropped. However, BT PP4PP7K fully connects like it's supposed to. Juggles are easier to connect in 5U.

Edit: Nevermind, just checked on Vanilla. BT PP6P~K can connect after a low 4P launch. I could've sworn only BT PP6PK used to connect. Oh well, no biggie.