Tougeki Combo Exhibition!

[MrMoon360]

We're willing to deal with an opponent having the chance to counter out of stun. We're not willing to deal with our opponent having multiple chances to counter out of stun.

That, in my mind, breaks the game yes. Remember the thread I posted about the actual odds of holding out of threshold? Lessons we should not forget.

But we have no idea how much impact that change really made so we have to wait and find out.

*chokes a chicken*
Rikuto.
With all do respect my friend, I'd have to kill myself if I remembered that mindfunk of percentage text.

When concerning what breaks a game as opposed to what balances a game in DOA5, its a matter of opinion here, I suppose.
Could you not counter multiple times in stun, in DOA3.1? Because the option is there, doesn't make it broken in my mind. There's no advantage in giving yourself the chance to be HCH or thrown. If you have both mid-kick and mid-punch launchers, I don't see where this is broken tbh.

Giving yourself high guaranteed damage at every nick and cranny would not be DOA. Not even VF5. That's SCV.
Removing shakable stuns immediately strips away how technical DOA would be, simplifying it to "get hit confirm, stun combo with excellent damage".

We shouldn't rate complexity for brokenness.

From what I gather, DOA5 is shaping up to be very much like VF in fighting game logic.

 

[Raansu]

*chokes a chicken*
Rikuto.
With all do respect my friend, I'd have to kill myself if I remembered that mindfunk of percentage text.

When concerning what breaks a game as opposed to what balances a game in DOA5, its a matter of opinion here, I suppose.
Could you not counter multiple times in stun, in DOA3.1? Because the option is there, doesn't make it broken in my mind. There's no advantage in giving yourself the chance to be HCH or thrown. If you have both mid-kick and mid-punch launchers, I don't see where this is broken tbh.

Giving yourself high guaranteed damage at every nick and cranny would not be DOA. Not even VF5. That's SCV.
Removing shakable stuns immediately strips away how technical DOA would be, simplifying it to "get hit confirm, stun combo with excellent damage".

We shouldn't rate complexity for brokenness.

From what I gather, DOA5 is shaping up to be very much like VF in fighting game logic.

DoA3.1 didn't need you to stun them multiple times to reach max height. You could literally stun > launch and have max height. On top of that DoA3.1 had multiple unholdable situations. As is from what we know DoA5 is still much more forgiving than DoA3.1.

 

[TRI Mike]

Having guaranteed stuff in the game is very important. As long as not everything confirms and guarantee long-ass combos like in MVC3. I seriously think the game is heading the right way. Probably not perfect but definitely great.

 

[Rikuto]

Having guaranteed stuff in the game is very important. As long as not everything confirms and guarantee long-ass combos like in MVC3. I seriously think the game is heading the right way. Probably not perfect but definitely great.

Combos in DOA 5 are actually visually fun to watch though. The physics are cool.

With MVC its more like watching the same three attacks 20 times in a row with sometimes a super thrown in there.

 

[MrMoon360]

DoA3.1 didn't need you to stun them multiple times to reach max height. You could literally stun > launch and have max height. On top of that DoA3.1 had multiple unholdable situations. As is from what we know DoA5 is still much more forgiving than DoA3.1.

So what you're saying is, we must go for max height in the stun threshold every time we get our opponent in critical state?

Having guaranteed stuff in the game is very important. As long as not everything confirms and guarantee long-ass combos like in MVC3. I seriously think the game is heading the right way. Probably not perfect but definitely great.

I agree completely.

 

[Rikuto]

So what you're saying is, we must go for max height in the stun threshold every time we get our opponent in critical state?

If you don't want to you can go straight for a launch, and probably get less damage than one of the better counters, while risking getting hit by that counter.

 

[Raansu]

So what you're saying is, we must go for max height in the stun threshold every time we get our opponent in critical state?

My point was in DoA3.1 you didn't have to stun them over and over again giving the defender 3-4 chances to escape. DoA3.1 also didn't have every other attack stun either. Older DoA's had much less emphasis on the stun system.

 

[MrMoon360]

If you don't want to you can go straight for a launch, and probably get less damage than one of the better counters, while risking getting hit by that counter.

Options. Its a wondeful thing. If you go for a launcher using a mid, what are the chances of getting countered?
50/50
Sounds a lot like how VF stuns work.

If you're fighting a character like Ryu, whom gets good damage off an advanced counter, (izuna) he's more likely to counter in a pinch (low health, dangerzone nearby, etc..), right? Use this to your advantage. We don't have to whine over this.

Then we have to take into account, they're working on the threshold and launch height in stun. This game could very well be in the finishing touches stage in its development.

 

[DrDogg]

There's no advantage in giving yourself the chance to be HCH or thrown.

Actually, in the E3 build, if you get caught with a HCH you can counter out of most natural combos. In that respect, there's an advantage to being hit HCH instead of normal hit or counter-hit.

Giving yourself high guaranteed damage at every nick and cranny would not be DOA. Not even VF5. That's SCV.

I've never known SC5 to be a game in which every nick and cranny gives you guaranteed damage. In fact, excluding juggles, I'd say it's far easier to avoid damage in SC5 than it is in DOA5 as of E3.

Options. Its a wondeful thing. If you go for a launcher using a mid, what are the chances of getting countered?
50/50
Sounds a lot like how VF stuns work.

If you're fighting a character like Ryu, whom gets good damage off an advanced counter, (izuna) he's more likely to counter in a pinch (low health, dangerzone nearby, etc..), right? Use this to your advantage. We don't have to whine over this.

All of that sounds like way more guess work compared to when I play VF. Sounds quite a bit like when I played DOA4 though.

 

[DriftSlave]

The only thing i was kinda disappointed that most, combos were hi counter strike/throws. The only ones that were not was:
-Koroko's 4T throw setup.
-Lei Fang's 4P+K(stance) throw setup.
I'm more interested in normal hit combos/setups then ones on counter hit...though despite popular belief DOA is one of those fighters where counter hits/throws/holds are not uncommon.

 

[DrDogg]

The only thing i was kinda disappointed that most, combos were hi counter strike/throws. The only ones that were not was:
-Koroko's 4T throw setup.
-Lei Fang's 4P+K(stance) throw setup.
I'm more interested in normal hit combos/setups then ones on counter hit...though despite popular belief DOA is one of those fighters where counter hits/throws/holds are not uncommon.

Most of those probably work on normal hit as well.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Most of those probably work on normal hit as well.

How about Kasumi. Most of her combos seemed to need a hi counter.

 

[DriftSlave]

Most of those probably work on normal hit as well.

unless im lacking knowledge on the subject please enlighten me...

More or less im willing to believe the throw setups would work because I think you gain some small +frames if it's a counter or hi counter throw/hold...but the attacks?

I'm quite sure some if not most of these attacks have different properties on normal it, which in term makes you play the DOA4 stun game even longer...but correct me if im wrong. I only extensively played the alpha but only on counter hit or in stun Ayane could get a limb stun off her 4F+K.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Anyone else notice Shimbori mention that some combos may be stance specific?

 

[Blazeincarnated]

Anyone else notice Shimbori mention that some combos may be stance specific?

omg, I wanna see Tina's new stance lol

 

[Matt Ponton]

That's just her idle animation, not a stance.

 

[MrMoon360]

Actually, in the E3 build, if you get caught with a HCH you can counter out of most natural combos. In that respect, there's an advantage to being hit HCH instead of normal hit or counter-hit.

Getting HCH puts you in critical state or launches right?
Wouldn't the properties of the hold remain the same? There's still more recovery on them than ever before. You still take a % more damage if hit attempting to counter.
I believe advantage is too strong a word to use in this situation concerning the ability to counter. That was DOA4.
The attacker still has the upper hand. The defender's options are narrowed.
Excuse my ignorance, but what are natural combos in DOA? Command list combo strings?

I've never known SC5 to be a game in which every nick and cranny gives you guaranteed damage. In fact, excluding juggles, I'd say it's far easier to avoid damage in SC5 than it is in DOA5 as of E3.

Excuse my choice of words. I exaggerate a little here, but the same mechanic applies. Get a hit confirm, do excellent high damage thereafter, other player sits and watches the rape commence. That means we'll see the same high damage combo from a particular character, all the time.
This game is defense heavy, out of fear from so much as a poke yielding high damage and offense is very powerful.
Not saying this is good in a fighting game or bad.
That's just not DOA.
SCIV is a much different game. It was aggressive and more technical, due in part to shakable stuns.

All of that sounds like way more guess work compared to when I play VF. Sounds quite a bit like when I played DOA4 though.

No disrespect, but how you play VF and how high-level players (not implying I am one) may be two entirely different ways.

DOA4 had a broken risk/reward system. Critical stuns were frequent AND the counter was a ridiculous tool, yielding more damage than the fearful attacker in most cases.
Those things have passed away. This is the new DOA which has evolved and remains a technical fighter; like VF.
The balancing is underway; this game is nearly complete.

 

[DrDogg]

How about Kasumi. Most of her combos seemed to need a hi counter.

Hard to tell, but I didn't think so.

unless im lacking knowledge on the subject please enlighten me...

More or less im willing to believe the throw setups would work because I think you gain some small +frames if it's a counter or hi counter throw/hold...but the attacks?

I'm quite sure some if not most of these attacks have different properties on normal it, which in term makes you play the DOA4 stun game even longer...but correct me if im wrong. I only extensively played the alpha but only on counter hit or in stun Ayane could get a limb stun off her 4F+K.

Most of the time attacks have CH properties once the opponent is stunned. So the only difference in these hi-counter combos would be the first hit potentially not stunning. To me, that isn't much of a difference.

Anyone else notice Shimbori mention that some combos may be stance specific?

Where? If we're talking open/closed stance, I'm really not a fan of that. It's the one thing I dislike most about VF.

Getting HCH puts you in critical state or launches right?
Wouldn't the properties of the hold remain the same?

Excuse my ignorance, but what are natural combos in DOA? Command list combo strings?

A natural combo is when the first hit of an attack connects and you can't counter the rest of the natural combo. Most character's PP is an example of this. You can't counter the second P if the first P connects.

However, if the first P connects as a hi-counter, you can counter the second P.

That means we'll see the same high damage combo from a particular character, all the time.

The same thing happens in DOA after a launch. And before a stun you'll see the same few attacks used over and over to try to get a stun.

This game is defense heavy, out of fear from so much as a poke yielding high damage and offense is very powerful.
Not saying this is good in a fighting game or bad.
That's just not DOA.
SCIV is a much different game. It was aggressive and more technical, due in part to shakable stuns.

I find SC5 to be more offensive than SC4, especially with JG, BE attacks and the ridiculous wall game.

No disrespect, but how you play VF and how high-level players (not implying I am one) may be two entirely different ways.

I consider myself pretty high-level at VF, I just don't play it as much anymore. As I stated before, I've won VF tournaments in the past. I entered VF at Evo, but I didn't bother playing because I had less than 3 weeks with the game, and it was throwing off my SC play, so I just focused on SC instead.

DOA4 had a broken risk/reward system. Critical stuns were frequent AND the counter was a ridiculous tool, yielding more damage than the fearful attacker in most cases.

The counter is still a ridiculous tool. Damage is toned down outside of advanced holds, but it's still just as effective in all other aspects. The only difference is that we have a few tools to avoid the counter... but if CB is toned down too much, we lose one of those tools and inch closer to DOA4.

 

[DriftSlave]

I think the opponent having 1 more chance to guess...is a difference to me.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I hope most of these are not hi counters because if they are you have to react fast on it.