Tougeki Combo Exhibition!

[Matt Ponton]

Where? If we're talking open/closed stance, I'm really not a fan of that. It's the one thing I dislike most about VF.

https://twitter.com/TeamNINJAStudio/status/229077897166589952

[D-YS] ...A guaranteed combo when your feet match up with the opponent... #DOA5

Although I do agree, it's very difficult (especially in DOA) to be aware of open/close stance.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

https://twitter.com/TeamNINJAStudio/status/229077897166589952



Although I do agree, it's very difficult (especially in DOA) to be aware of open/close stance.

What does open and closed stance mean? And what does feet matching up mean to, and how does it guarantee a combo.

 

[Rikuto]

Options. Its a wondeful thing. If you go for a launcher using a mid, what are the chances of getting countered?
50/50
Sounds a lot like how VF stuns work.

If you're fighting a character like Ryu, whom gets good damage off an advanced counter, (izuna) he's more likely to counter in a pinch (low health, dangerzone nearby, etc..), right? Use this to your advantage. We don't have to whine over this.

Then we have to take into account, they're working on the threshold and launch height in stun. This game could very well be in the finishing touches stage in its development.

The odds are not in your favor though. They are in Ryu's... go back and read that old thread on accumulated probability if you need a refresher.

The damage is in his favor too, once you break down the probability and the number of times you have to guess right vs him only guessing right once. You can "predict" all day long, but it doesn't change the probability between the most likely options being in his favor, and the payoff he gets for guessing right just once vs all the times you'll have to guess right to compensate for it.

But yes, we have to take this into the lab first before we can see what damage this change actually did... given the fact that its INTENTION is to make it harder to reach a CB though, its hard to see it as anything other than bad.

 

[TRI Mike]

We're not even 100% sure about the opponents having that extra chance. Even people like Bryan and Erik don't know completely what Shimbori's numbers meant.

I just know that there are way too many things to avoid DOA4's bullshit and that's definitely a great thing. I hope we get to see more combo videos like that one.

 

[DrDogg]

Although I do agree, it's very difficult (especially in DOA) to be aware of open/close stance.

Yeah, I can't see it on the fly, especially when stances change mid combo in DOA.

What does open and closed stance mean? And what does feet matching up mean to, and how does it guarantee a combo.

Open and closed stance refers to the character's stance compared to the opponent's. One foot is always forward, but as the fight progresses that changes between the right and left foot. If both characters have the same foot forward, it's referred to as a closed stance. If the characters have opposite feet forward, it's referred to as an open stance.

Basically, what Shimbori is saying is that depending on the position of your feet in relation to the opponent's feet, you'll get a specific stun. This happened in previous games for limbo stun.

 

[Rikuto]

We're not even 100% sure about the opponents having that extra chance. Even people like Bryan and Erik don't know completely what Shimbori's numbers meant.

I just know that there are way too many things to avoid DOA4's bullshit and that's definitely a great thing. I hope we get to see more combo videos like that one.

Naturally we don't know for sure... Of course, why would Shimbori even make the change if it wasn't going to have an affect on the number of hits it would take to CB?

I think in the worse case scenario, we will still have certain characters that can get good damage even if they don't go for a CB and rely instead purely on sitdown stuns into a launch. Lets just hope there are enough of them, cause the game itself LOOKS god damn sweet.

 

[Blazeincarnated]

That's just her idle animation, not a stance.

So will all characters have new idle stances?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Naturally we don't know for sure... Of course, why would Shimbori even make the change if it wasn't going to have an affect on the number of hits it would take to CB?

I think in the worse case scenario, we will still have certain characters that can get good damage even if they don't go for a CB and rely instead purely on sitdown stuns into a launch. Lets just hope there are enough of them, cause the game itself LOOKS god damn sweet.

Every character may not even need it to excell. Having a limbo stun is just as advantageous. Only get one chance to counter, and if your opponent fail you get a bt combo. Cant wait to play and find all the nuances.

 

[TRI Mike]

And now, let's suppose this. If Tina's CB is a mid punch and she goes for a stun threshold, would there be a way to like mislead the opponent into holding 4F and punish that with a good throw¿ I think that with holds having more recovery, it could be a viable strategy. Another thing would be to just not go for the CB every time and, instead of trying to land a mid-punch CB, we'd do for a high or mid-kick launcher after a sit-down and still deal a fair amount of damage with a juggle or air-throw.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Naturally we don't know for sure... Of course, why would Shimbori even make the change if it wasn't going to have an affect on the number of hits it would take to CB?

I think in the worse case scenario, we will still have certain characters that can get good damage even if they don't go for a CB and rely instead purely on sitdown stuns into a launch. Lets just hope there are enough of them, cause the game itself LOOKS god damn sweet.

Kasumi is looking that way honestly. I won't mind too much, as long as, like you said, I have the tools to do that damage without too much risk.

 

[DrDogg]

Every character may not even need it to excell. Having a limbo stun is just as advantageous. Only get one chance to counter, and if your opponent fail you get a bt combo. Cant wait to play and find all the nuances.

I don't know. We've only seen what... two characters with limbo stuns so far? Plus, we don't know how much of the stun you can SE out of. Basically, every character needs to be able to get to an unholdable stun by the second hit of a combo, and/or CB by the third hit. Any character who can't do this is going to be limited unless they have something else that can balance out being forced to play the stun game.

And now, let's suppose this. If Tina's CB is a mid punch and she goes for a stun threshold, would there be a way to like mislead the opponent into holding 4F and punish that with a good throw¿ I think that with holds having more recovery, it could be a viable strategy. Another thing would be to just not go for the CB every time and, instead of trying to land a mid-punch CB, we'd do for a high or mid-kick launcher after a sit-down and still deal a fair amount of damage with a juggle or air-throw.

Hopefully you can do almost anything after a sit-down stun, so the mix-up would happen before the sit-down. So long as you can get good damage without maximizing the stun threshold, going for something other than a CB is feasible. But I imagine you'd be missing out on damage if you're not going for the full CB combo.

Kasumi is looking that way honestly. I won't mind too much, as long as, like you said, I have the tools to do that damage without too much risk.

As of E3, there was no reliable way to land Kasumi's CB without giving the opponent at least three chances to counter.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Yeah, I can't see it on the fly, especially when stances change mid combo in DOA.



Open and closed stance refers to the character's stance compared to the opponent's. One foot is always forward, but as the fight progresses that changes between the right and left foot. If both characters have the same foot forward, it's referred to as a closed stance. If the characters have opposite feet forward, it's referred to as an open stance.

Basically, what Shimbori is saying is that depending on the position of your feet in relation to the opponent's feet, you'll get a specific stun. This happened in previous games for limbo stun.

Wow thats pretty technical. I doubt ill be able to tell while im playing so this isnt a a big deal then.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I don't know. We've only seen what... two characters with limbo stuns so far? Plus, we don't know how much of the stun you can SE out of. Basically, every character needs to be able to get to an unholdable stun by the second hit of a combo, and/or CB by the third hit. Any character who can't do this is going to be limited unless they have something else that can balance out being forced to play the stun game.

-Well, traditionally, characters did not need the stun game to excell in Doa. I am pretty sure players will be looking for the best options for their character. Ex ayane's + juggle would provide solid damage without playing the stun game, or Bass's knock down+pick up..etc. when I get the game I am looking beyond what is capable with the stuns, and looking at the overall picture.

 

[CyberEvil]

DoA4 WAS a stun game. There was just a simple, bonus fighting game on the side.

 

[virtuaPAI]

DoA4 WAS a stun game. There was just a simple, bonus fighting game on the side.

Exactly! There will be more to Doa5, than just the stun game. This should only be a subset of the overall picture.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

So why does everyone call DOA4 a stun game. I know most moves stunned but those critical stuns dont do anything really.

 

[CyberEvil]

Someone else will likely paint a more comprehensive picture for you, Doug, but the short version is that every single high level match of DoA4 was a rush to stun, reset the stun, try a different stun, and OH MAN I'M GONNA MIX IT UP BY NOT STUNNING AND GRABBING INSTEAD! That was DoA4. It was pitiful. When it's stated that simply you could argue that every fighting game should be about pressing advantage but it goes a lot deeper than that.

EDIT: Since nobody else has chimed in yet, I'll elaborate just a little bit more on what I said. In short, in DoA4, the chances were significantly higher to get a critical hit and/or stun someone than not. You'd effectively have to fight with only single jabs to try avoiding stuns and even THOSE can stun in the right circumstances. Because of that, nearly every other major component to the fighting engine, from crushes to different hold types, was rendered moot, save for the All Powerful Counter Hold.

 

[DrDogg]

-Well, traditionally, characters did not need the stun game to excell in Doa. I am pretty sure players will be looking for the best options for their character. Ex ayane's + juggle would provide solid damage without playing the stun game, or Bass's knock down+pick up..etc. when I get the game I am looking beyond what is capable with the stuns, and looking at the overall picture.

I'm not convinced Bass is going to play as well as you think he may play, but otherwise I concur.

Exactly! There will be more to Doa5, than just the stun game. This should only be a subset of the overall picture.

Not every character is going to have a way around the stun game. TN has introduced universal tools to get around it, so that's what we're analyzing at the moment.

When we have something more to analyze, we will. Right now, we don't.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I'm not convinced Bass is going to play as well as you think he may play, but otherwise I concur.

Not every character is going to have a way around the stun game. TN has introduced universal tools to get around it, so that's what we're analyzing at the moment.

When we have something more to analyze, we will. Right now, we don't.

-Im not ruling anything out till players get some lab work done with the final build of the game. Than can we say what is, and what is not.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Someone else will likely paint a more comprehensive picture for you, Doug,

Someone probably will... but this isn't the thread to do so.