TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
It's about that time of year again.
I've been getting back to my roots with Hayate, rediscovering why I loved playing with him so much and the connections between him, Ein and a large amount of other characters I play in other games.
What I want to discuss here is ideas for growing Hayate as a character and his style in general and I think that can be approached by looking at certain aspects of the character.
Hayate's new wind dash was an interesting addition to the game. What made it so interesting was the concept and theory behind the moves given to it.
While the DOA4 wind dash seemed to focus more on getting in (all knockdowns and a few stuns) the new wind dash seemed to focus on creating the means to an end (all launchers and knockdowns).
I'd like to return to that concept in LR by making the Wind Dash K launch again. The launch heights would be as they were in Vanilla:
On block it would be -7, This is because at anything above -7, he's able to be punished with a guaranteed back throw and against grapplers a 6i throw instead which will do sufficient damage. Jabs can't be blocked but can be ducked and crushed. Everything else should still hit if he presses a button.
On that note, I would vote to receive 1k as its previous iteration from DOA4 with the pp2kp version of 1kp and the wind dash transitions. What makes this mix up fair is that all of the options knockdown or can be slow escaped and are unsafe or interrupable.
What does launcher sensibility mean? Well, think of it this way: How is utility over damage being utilized here? His mid punch launchers make sense in this aspect as do his high kick launchers. Unfortunately I can't agree on his mid kick launchers.
33K and 9K are main issue here.
33K is much faster than 9K at 15i. In turn the base damage was reduced to 20 to up the utility in 9K. Of course this only was true for early stun game.
Both launchers receive the same juggle (PP6PK) off of the stun to launch height. 9K loses its luster late game since its highest damage juggle isn't available until critical lvl 3/full threshold. I think this doesn't really make any sense. To remedy this I want to strip 4P6P+K~K, BT 7K from full threshold 33K and then give 9K a slight increase on height to allow 8P, PPKK to be the BNB for end game on lights and 8P, PP6PK to be available off critcal level 2 and late game for mids.
8K is fine and I've already spoken on Wind Dash K.
For 8k though, while the damage off of it is already good, the ppkk change ties in pretty well to the juggle diversity segment where the main focus are the two.
When I talk about this subject I always assume the way of juggling will never changing for the system in this game. If that weren't the case I'd love to see multiple bound and flop relaunch set ups like in Tekken as well as a few other scenarios.
In this case, we're focusing on the current system and the main additions being PPP, 7K and PPKK late game in the juggle.
I'd like to see ppp get it's relaunch at 4 hits reworked to lift a bit higher to offer 7k so that 8k, 8p, ppp, 7k is available again.
Now I know some of the fears are damage but in reality even as a wall friendly juggle, it doesn't overtake his highest damage juggle (h3pp, pp6pk) which just requires a little execution.
Also even with his advanced mid kick hold, he doesn't get new opportunities that would be game breaking. 8p, ppp, 33kk shouldn't work but wouldn't only be 72 damage while his max damage combo is 76 so if you use the other you're just styling and 6pk as the lender instead of 33kk is two points down at 70 dmg.
Another deal was raising the relaunch on ppk slightly so that anywhere that he gets a stance specific ppkk, it will work in both stances so that he can use it consistently. If the ppk doesn't touch then it won't be available at all.
With the 4-5 point juggle damage buff this puts the two new juggle enders at the same damage as current 4p6p+k~k, bt 7k which would receive a 2 point juggle damage buff by making the second kick of wind dash k do 20 instead of 16 damage.
As far as new moves go, 1k is the main one. Another one I would like to see return is his DOA4 Wind Dash Kick as Running 2H+K and move 3H+K to 6H+K.
The last subject is safety.
Even at 12i I don't believe 6p should be -12 on hit or block. It should be -9 and so should 66p. I doubt anyone can name a character that has the same problem for their 12 low damage stunning mid.
3pp should be at least +2 on NH. It's stupid for it to be disadvantage let alone only safe while he gets no launchers guaranteed. Genfu has a similar string. His is plus on NH and be has a 11i mid. Also he gets 33p guaranteed into another 33p which will bound and give him a juggle. Free damage or oki set up. Your choice.
Mila gets +5 too but also gets better stun game and a superior damage output in most of the situations while offering oki pressure from her mounts so she has pressure and damage. Hayate doesn't have solid oki set ups away from the wall.
Zack is at - but he has a 3 hit string with a away transition on 3p in general. His makes sense, Hayate's does not.
Even Kasumi is plus +3 on her p+kp which is very similar and she has a low sweep mix up. So what's the issue??
I vote +3 honestly but if I can get +2 on his 3pp, I'm satisfied.
That's basically it for realistic changes in DOA5LR as far as completing things goes.
For DOA6 I'll post my premade list. In a nutshell though it focuses on giving him more cancels within reason and some teleports straight into the wind dash.
I'll be tweaking the list today though so I'll repost to this topic when it is done and it will be: here
Feel free to post some of your ideas.
I've been getting back to my roots with Hayate, rediscovering why I loved playing with him so much and the connections between him, Ein and a large amount of other characters I play in other games.
What I want to discuss here is ideas for growing Hayate as a character and his style in general and I think that can be approached by looking at certain aspects of the character.
- The Wind Dash Intergration
- Launcher Sensibility
- Juggle Diversity
- New Moves
- Safety and Frame Advantage
Intergrating the Wind Dash
Hayate's new wind dash was an interesting addition to the game. What made it so interesting was the concept and theory behind the moves given to it.
While the DOA4 wind dash seemed to focus more on getting in (all knockdowns and a few stuns) the new wind dash seemed to focus on creating the means to an end (all launchers and knockdowns).
I'd like to return to that concept in LR by making the Wind Dash K launch again. The launch heights would be as they were in Vanilla:
- NH (If only second kick hits)
- BT 7K
- Stun to Launch (Low Threshold)
- PP6PK (LMH) (If possible, make this only available near the wall)
- PP2KP (LM)
- PPKK (LM)
- Critical Lvl 2 and Counter Hit (If only second kick hits)
- PPP, 7K (LMH)
- PPP, 33KK (LM)
- PPP, 6PK (LM)
- Full Threshold and High Counter (If only second kick hits)
- PPP, 33KK (LMH)
- PPP, 6PK (LM)
On block it would be -7, This is because at anything above -7, he's able to be punished with a guaranteed back throw and against grapplers a 6i throw instead which will do sufficient damage. Jabs can't be blocked but can be ducked and crushed. Everything else should still hit if he presses a button.
On that note, I would vote to receive 1k as its previous iteration from DOA4 with the pp2kp version of 1kp and the wind dash transitions. What makes this mix up fair is that all of the options knockdown or can be slow escaped and are unsafe or interrupable.
Launcher Sensibility
What does launcher sensibility mean? Well, think of it this way: How is utility over damage being utilized here? His mid punch launchers make sense in this aspect as do his high kick launchers. Unfortunately I can't agree on his mid kick launchers.
33K and 9K are main issue here.
33K is much faster than 9K at 15i. In turn the base damage was reduced to 20 to up the utility in 9K. Of course this only was true for early stun game.
Both launchers receive the same juggle (PP6PK) off of the stun to launch height. 9K loses its luster late game since its highest damage juggle isn't available until critical lvl 3/full threshold. I think this doesn't really make any sense. To remedy this I want to strip 4P6P+K~K, BT 7K from full threshold 33K and then give 9K a slight increase on height to allow 8P, PPKK to be the BNB for end game on lights and 8P, PP6PK to be available off critcal level 2 and late game for mids.
8K is fine and I've already spoken on Wind Dash K.
For 8k though, while the damage off of it is already good, the ppkk change ties in pretty well to the juggle diversity segment where the main focus are the two.
Juggle Diversity
When I talk about this subject I always assume the way of juggling will never changing for the system in this game. If that weren't the case I'd love to see multiple bound and flop relaunch set ups like in Tekken as well as a few other scenarios.
In this case, we're focusing on the current system and the main additions being PPP, 7K and PPKK late game in the juggle.
I'd like to see ppp get it's relaunch at 4 hits reworked to lift a bit higher to offer 7k so that 8k, 8p, ppp, 7k is available again.
Now I know some of the fears are damage but in reality even as a wall friendly juggle, it doesn't overtake his highest damage juggle (h3pp, pp6pk) which just requires a little execution.
Also even with his advanced mid kick hold, he doesn't get new opportunities that would be game breaking. 8p, ppp, 33kk shouldn't work but wouldn't only be 72 damage while his max damage combo is 76 so if you use the other you're just styling and 6pk as the lender instead of 33kk is two points down at 70 dmg.
Another deal was raising the relaunch on ppk slightly so that anywhere that he gets a stance specific ppkk, it will work in both stances so that he can use it consistently. If the ppk doesn't touch then it won't be available at all.
With the 4-5 point juggle damage buff this puts the two new juggle enders at the same damage as current 4p6p+k~k, bt 7k which would receive a 2 point juggle damage buff by making the second kick of wind dash k do 20 instead of 16 damage.
New Moves
As far as new moves go, 1k is the main one. Another one I would like to see return is his DOA4 Wind Dash Kick as Running 2H+K and move 3H+K to 6H+K.
Safety and Frame Advantage
The last subject is safety.
Even at 12i I don't believe 6p should be -12 on hit or block. It should be -9 and so should 66p. I doubt anyone can name a character that has the same problem for their 12 low damage stunning mid.
3pp should be at least +2 on NH. It's stupid for it to be disadvantage let alone only safe while he gets no launchers guaranteed. Genfu has a similar string. His is plus on NH and be has a 11i mid. Also he gets 33p guaranteed into another 33p which will bound and give him a juggle. Free damage or oki set up. Your choice.
Mila gets +5 too but also gets better stun game and a superior damage output in most of the situations while offering oki pressure from her mounts so she has pressure and damage. Hayate doesn't have solid oki set ups away from the wall.
Zack is at - but he has a 3 hit string with a away transition on 3p in general. His makes sense, Hayate's does not.
Even Kasumi is plus +3 on her p+kp which is very similar and she has a low sweep mix up. So what's the issue??
I vote +3 honestly but if I can get +2 on his 3pp, I'm satisfied.
That's basically it for realistic changes in DOA5LR as far as completing things goes.
For DOA6 I'll post my premade list. In a nutshell though it focuses on giving him more cancels within reason and some teleports straight into the wind dash.
I'll be tweaking the list today though so I'll repost to this topic when it is done and it will be: here
Feel free to post some of your ideas.
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