Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?
- Thread starter theclassybutler
- Start date
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
MKX was mentioned - I gotta respond! The major complaint about MKX's WU game is the armored attacks = invincibility frames - well, I will be damned!!
Here's the difference: the lack of (thank goodness) Force-teching! Erron Black even lets you up after his command grab ender. This once grounded, you're dead doesn't apply to MKX. I think you're referring to the stage falatities/traps from earlier games. (Uppercut into spiked ceiling/floor) There is no FT bullshit in MKX! Yes, you can tech up, but you aren't necessarily punished for doing so - neither are you punished for staying down! In fact, many say to delay your wake up - shit you can't do in DOA (well, you can, but given the FT bs ) - and sadly a character has THAT only option - the same options MKX - tech up immediately or delay. The delay clearly doesn't work!
And since I brought up punishment: well, I think you know where this is headed. I've already griped about this - just not wholeheartedly -- yet!!
Here's the difference: the lack of (thank goodness) Force-teching! Erron Black even lets you up after his command grab ender. This once grounded, you're dead doesn't apply to MKX. I think you're referring to the stage falatities/traps from earlier games. (Uppercut into spiked ceiling/floor) There is no FT bullshit in MKX! Yes, you can tech up, but you aren't necessarily punished for doing so - neither are you punished for staying down! In fact, many say to delay your wake up - shit you can't do in DOA (well, you can, but given the FT bs ) - and sadly a character has THAT only option - the same options MKX - tech up immediately or delay. The delay clearly doesn't work!
And since I brought up punishment: well, I think you know where this is headed. I've already griped about this - just not wholeheartedly -- yet!!
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Uhm while you technically can't force summon to get up in MK.... characters like Erron Black and I think Kotal Khan have special attacks that damage downed opponents.... it doesn't force you to get up but that's kind of a moot point if you're lying ontop of Caltrops.
I actually don't mind Force Techs in DoA.... I mind guaranteed Force Techs... I think its wrong for you to knock someone down and guarantee a force tech.... you might ask "whats the difference then.... either way your opponent gets what they want.... to get you to stand up" well the difference is you get autonomy instead of another scenario where you have no control even if the result is the same.... the simple aspect of having some control is important from a psychological perspective.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
It's different, period! The caltrops and sun beam, stay away from them. Why the fuck would you walk into those two objects KNOWING you'll take damage? It's stupid! Or Kitana's parry (Assassin). Why would you throw out a mid since that's what her parry is design to grab? Or Commando Kano's which tags highs/lows? Kenshi/Jacqui's projectile parries? Liu Kang's?
Now, with DOA, people have this idea to get as much as possible. This isn't always a good idea! Ironically, I've seen players who are good with Alpha getting 149 every damn time or her opponents getting twice that off her in one combo "just because." The odds of the final round in the GFs of said DOA tournament with her and Phase 4 where both have 2% life and it comes down to "who's
comes out faster?"Sometimes doing NOTHING is as much of a mind game - shit MORE of a mind game than doing everything that is possible under the sun!
You can't counter in MKX outside of the parries with the above characters unless you use a combo/block breaker - which requires two bars of meter! "The meter at the bottom of the screen ..." DOA has nothing like that! PL's are wasted because "I gotz to juggle!" PBs, when you don't need them - especially after a CB setup just to add insult to injury.
And the GBs in DOA are complete garbage! Why is everybody +13 on charged ones? Hell, one's X-Ray doesn't break someone's guard in MKX or 9 for that matter? You just got to get the fuck in when you have access to whatever spot is open or holy shit - a throw! Ironically, folks turn into throw whores when they see they can't hit you - no, this is not tick-throwing!
The air vs. ground game! This is where DOA fucked up because I believe the quote was (paraphrasing) "Wanting to give players a second chance when they hit the ground since MK says 'You're dead!" (this is obviously false). Now, it's "When you're in the air - off the ground - you're dead!" This is where most people want to play now! It's in MKX, too, but not to an egregious extent! (And it's not Alpha only since with the inclusion of DZ, everybody gets her treatment)
Again, guaranteed force-techs irk you? Psychological advantage? This is lost on defensive players! Help us find it!
Lulu
Well-Known Member
It's different, period! The caltrops and sun beam, stay away from them. Why the fuck would you walk into those two objects KNOWING you'll take damage? It's stupid! Or Kitana's parry (Assassin). Why would you throw out a mid since that's what her parry is design to grab? Or Commando Kano's which tags highs/lows? Kenshi/Jacqui's projectile parries? Liu Kang's?
Now, with DOA, people have this idea to get as much as possible. This isn't always a good idea! Ironically, I've seen players who are good with Alpha getting 149 every damn time or her opponents getting twice that off her in one combo "just because." The odds of the final round in the GFs of said DOA tournament with her and Phase 4 where both have 2% life and it comes down to "who's
Sometimes doing NOTHING is as much of a mind game - shit MORE of a mind game than doing everything that is possible under the sun!
You can't counter in MKX outside of the parries with the above characters unless you use a combo/block breaker - which requires two bars of meter! "The meter at the bottom of the screen ..." DOA has nothing like that! PL's are wasted because "I gotz to juggle!" PBs, when you don't need them - especially after a CB setup just to add insult to injury.
And the GBs in DOA are complete garbage! Why is everybody +13 on charged ones? Hell, one's X-Ray doesn't break someone's guard in MKX or 9 for that matter? You just got to get the fuck in when you have access to whatever spot is open or holy shit - a throw! Ironically, folks turn into throw whores when they see they can't hit you - no, this is not tick-throwing!
The air vs. ground game! This is where DOA fucked up because I believe the quote was (paraphrasing) "Wanting to give players a second chance when they hit the ground since MK says 'You're dead!" (this is obviously false). Now, it's "When you're in the air - off the ground - you're dead!" This is where most people want to play now! It's in MKX, too, but not to an egregious extent! (And it's not Alpha only since with the inclusion of DZ, everybody gets her treatment)
Again, guaranteed force-techs irk you? Psychological advantage? This is lost on defensive players! Help us find it!
Okay... I'l try to respond to what I think I was able to understand:
My example about the Caltrops was that they damage knockes down opponent's.... I don't know if the sunbeam can do it too but I've seen Players use the Caltrops to bait people inro standing up. They don't walk into them..... they use them on opponents who take to long to get up.
I think the purpose of MKX's delayed wake up was to grant players that "doing nothing is a great mind game" aspect.... but Erron Black's Caltrops kills that off.... just like Ayane's Jumping Attack.... they take away mind games by removing people's wake up options..... just like in Street Fighter.
I never liked Super Meters and Stamina Bars because it feels like an unnatural balancing force.... thats the problem with MKX's Breakers and BlazBlue's Defensive Bursts..... if you have one.... you can break the combo, guaranteed. I don't think tying these things to a Super Meter actually Balance Them out.... they just place a limit on how many times you can exploit something powerful.... so instead of Breakers being over powered forever they are just overpowered twice per match..... I don't like that.
I think the only Guard Break in DoA to worry about is Akira's one.... I don't know its Command but I think its one of the fastest Guard Breaks that can guarantee something exactly the same way it did on Virtua Fighter....
I also don't like Guard Breaks that lead into completely guaranteed Combos and Juggles.... the guatanteed hit from a Guard Break shouldn't be a launcher or a Sit Down Stun attack..... that just doesn't seem fair.....
Now this is interesting.... MKX Doesn't need Guard Breaks..... because they have Chip Damage for literally anything that touches you even things like Throw Breaks deal Chip Damage.... so I'm guessing what I'm saying is the reason DoA has because of how good its Guard mechanic is, I think they also gave characters with weak throws and telegraphed low attacks powerfull guard breaks..... thats why Alpha doesn't have that many of them.... shes a mix up monster and a strong Thrower.
I will however say that I think MKX's chip damage on normal attacks is stupid..... only special moves should chip just like in Street Fighter. Its not like its harder to mix people up in MKX since they have premade combos that cover every scenario for people who block too much.
Anyway the force tech thing is not ideal.... some might look at my example and think its insulting to grant you control over something that genuinely doesn't make a single difference... and they are right to think that... because that's how it is... they should give people control over things that do matter.... that will be an even better mind game for both players (assuming both players play for the mind games)... only Mr. Guaranteed Damage is going to cry if you take his force techs away because now he actually has to earn his damage instead of being on autopilot.
d3v
Well-Known Member
The problem is that once you get hard knocked down (which is usually at the corner), your opponent gets to go in and set up their 50-50 set play on you.
d3v
Well-Known Member
The problems with NetherRealm's combo system (since it also applies to Injustice) are two fold.
First, it kills any sort of mid-range footsie game because the way it requires you to commit to strings kills any sort of hit confirming. This means you can't play mid-range footsies and fish for confirms off pokes. Instead, you need to commit to strings are therefore live and die off frame data, which means that game is played either at full screen distance with projectiles, or at super close range.
The second, more fundamental problem is how it's not based on hitstun. Instead characters get out of a combo once the attacking character returns to a neutral state unless the opponent is in a juggle or is captured by a move. This leads to a very stiff, very linear combo system that requires a combination of cancels, juggles and captures. This makes it hard to actually develop combos because everything that can combo is already pre-defined, leading to it feeling very stiff (as previously mentioned) leading to the "dial-a-combo" feel.
Compare this with something like DOA5, which also uses strings, but also uses hitstun (very generous amounts at that, when you factor in other stun states) that gives the combo system a more free-form feel. Or better yet, KI, which while having what many would call a "dial-a-combo" is actually pretty free-form since it's still all based on hitstun.
d3v
Well-Known Member
What I don't understand, is why they still have frame data for "on hit" when it barely ever matters, except to make a move unsafe when you don't combo out of it.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Free-from? You mean: "Here's this long as combo you needn't think about how to build!" Folks don't want to learn how to link or what links? The
(x7) combo that people bitch about that Alpha has or scrolling down to see strings that require no effort to do. Then, you head over to combo challenge where there are preset combos as smaller parts of the longer combo! (Something the devs/testers thought of - not players) Phoned in combos exist in DOA which is ironic given how many don't like the DaC system in MK/Injustice!
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Free-from? You mean: "Here's this long as combo you needn't think about how to build!" Folks don't want to learn how to link or what links? The
Well finding out which moves link into eachother during hitstun isn't that hard.... its actually simple Addition and Subtraction.... and all though MKX is not as complex its still Free Form. you just need to think of the Pre Made Combos as a single move that you're going to use to Knock your opponent's into your "Capture Moves" it drastically cuts down on all the homework you would need to do in something like Street Fighter.... Couple That with the Lower Execution Barrier means MKX's Possibilities are discovered much much quicker... and is far less exploitable.... and easier to balance.
The Cool Thing about DoA is the Hit Stun is so long that you don't need to study each move to see if they will combo into eachother.... a Ceiling Stun is so long that ti guarantees 90% of all the moves in DoA.... except high strikes obviously.
DoA doesn't actually have Premade Combos.... it has Pre Discovered Combos.... what you see in the Comb Challenges are combos some body already did the homework for and put them together for your convenience.... the closest thing DoA has to MKX Style Combos are the Strings.... but even those are linked together By Hitstun and not all of them Combo into eachother like they do in MKX..... Street Fighter has them too but I think they call them "Chains"
It might be possible to Counter Poke Alpha during her Punch String..... it depends on the amount hit or block stun each part of the string does.
d3v
Well-Known Member
The thing with the DOA system, if you get your opponent in critical state from some stray hits, if you know your characters combo routes, you can easily just go into them.Free-from? You mean: "Here's this long as combo you needn't think about how to build!" Folks don't want to learn how to link or what links? The
With NRS games, you really can't because you have to commit to a cancel. It's much harder to play based on abare (in the 2D sense, which is converting random stray hits into damage/combos) in these games because any combo requires commitment before you actually confirm it, unless you're going into some form of capture (freeze, etc.).
It's the same problem that plagues the mid range poking game in these games which is why you either get strong full screen zoning, or almost no zoning at all.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
The canceling? Isn't that good though? Play Sarah Bryant/Rig in DOA and canceling is like candy to a kid in a candy store! And you can still play the mid range game (attacking doesn't only constitutes as a means of playing - again, doing absolutely nothing is just a valid as doing everything possible!)
As much as I love poking in DOA, this mechanic is abused to where it's ridiculous! You know how I know? Let me block all day (btw, I don't take damage which is also stupid). "I'm pissed! Let me throw him!" Explain to me how tick-throwing is prevalent in MK and other 2D fighters, yet not in DOA or other 3D fighters? If it's due to the reset, you get that in both games. MKX I can take chip damage or the throwing of ticks (not the same as tick-throwing). DOA though? At least, think to maybe throw instead of just waiting til the opps guard is down.
And you can zone from any range in MKX - not just full screen! If you're referring to projectile zoning full screen is the popular range, but it can be done from 3/4, mid (neutral) 1/4 or closer (albeit more dangerous). I'm sure you know what zoning is, therefore, I needn't explain it to you! Footsies, Spacing and Poking for the shorter ranges is this, but using non-projectile attacks! DOA is hand-to-hand combat - with no projectiles outside Raidou - and Alpha's HAS to be done upclose!
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Well its good for him.... whether its good for everybody is something else entirely.
d3v
Well-Known Member
The whole zoning thing in NRS games has already been discussed to death.
Here's an discussion by FGC veteran Josh the FunkyDoc on the subject.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/wh...g-characters-hardly-exist-in-nrs-games.52607/
To save everyone from having to read the whole thing, here's the meat of the discussion.
Now you mention DOA, well you can't really apply the same thing here because MKX is still in the end, a 2D fighting game (albeit one that borrows alot from 3D fighters). And mid and long ranges are more important in 2D fighters than in 3D.
This leads to what we see in NRS's games where you have cases of extremely good full screen zoning (e.g. Zod in Injustice) or cases where zoning is weak compared to rushdown/set play (e.g. MKX). You never really see good mid range zoning, at least in the way Street Fighter and some other 2D fighters have it. Yes, you can use pokes, but you can't say, do what CvS2 C-Cammy does and throw out a standing HK, see if it hits and if it doesn't, counter the jump in with either a Cannon Spike, or a jump normal or an air throw.
EDIT:
You mentioned tick throws. In SF at least, these work because of the speed of the frame data. The pokes recover fast enough that the throw immediately after comes out just after blockstun ends. Remember, a core rule of SF throws is that you cannot throw somebody in blockstun.
Not sure if this is the case in MKX, but I do believe you can still get thrown out of the blocking animation.
Last edited:
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure you did.... is this you changing your mind ?
And making inputs difficult is going to solve the problem of Reversal being to weak or too strong ?
I'm not here to argue balance... I'm here to argue Execution has got nothing to do with Balance... MK/Injustices Issues have nothing to do with Execution..... if theres something wrong with the reversal mechanic then fix the mechanic... its that simple.
I should clarify that one of those 6 buttons would be The Fireball Button.... and before you start about losing one of your Six Normals I'd like to point that you don't need 6 of them MK did just fine with 3.... DoA is Awesome with just 2.... I'd also like to point out that the six button set up is already complicated.... complaining about adding one more is kind of a moot point.
Yes we really do want a Balanced Game.... if Seth or anyone says other wise even in context then they are more than welcome to remove the Akuma and Old Sagat ban and see exactly how much they enjoy an Unbalanced Game..... those of us with who have common sennse will take the balanced game.... and feel free to look your nose down on us when we do. Thats what I have to say about "you don't really want a balanced game".... because thats just a stupid thing to say.
Moving on.... its true that most attempts at balancing the game end up sacrificing variety..... so should we leave the game unbalanced ? This is exactly the type of attitude I'm talking about.... its just an excuse for developers to be lazy and for competitors to forever have an advantage.
Sirlin wrote several Articles about what went down when he designed SFHDR.... Your answers lie in there.
"And then I had the honor and burden of improving upon what I consider the very best Street Fighter game ever: Super Turbo. Many people said it's impossible to improve upon the polished gem of ST and there were lots of obstacles to even getting this new gameplay in the game. Dozens and dozens of times people told me I couldn't do it, wasn't allowed to do it, and other discouraging things. Wayne Gretzky said, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take," so I took my shot."
I don't know how Remix turned out but atleast he had the balls to try instead of making excuses.
1. If the purpose of execution is to increase the chances of failure just as you mentioned before then thats making inputs Arbitrarily Difficult.... thats just obvious... I don't know how you convinced yourself that it isn't.
2. I don't know you.... and I don't care if thats what you said in those other forums..... the point is thats not what you said in this Discussion.... if you want to change your position to be in line with what you said in those other forums then thats cool.... if not then I stand by what I said about you. I mean if I said something racist then you would and should call me a racist regardless of if I say the exact opposite else where.... its that simple.
3. If the reason you play Fighting Games is for execution then you have point and I wouldn't dare try to argue against it..... but thats not why I play fighting games so yes I dismiss the entire concept of execution. But obviously the technology to make that possible just isn't there.... anyway theres more to execution than just what motions you use.... my specific problem with Execution is the leniency of those motions..... so even though something like
or is fine but if you have a less than 8 frames to do it then we are right back to square one.... pretty sure Capcom did that just to troll people who asked them to lower the execution barrier just like they did when they added the "Link Before you cancel into Super" rule in Street Fighter IV. 4. Okay then let me modify the analogy.... the sprinklers don't go off randomly... they go off every 60 Seconds..... does that suddenly make it less stupid ? I really wana know your answer.
Theres a very very very obvious concept that you just seem to be refusing to grasp on purpose.... I'm going to try this one more time.
Lets use Street Fighter 4 as an Example.
"Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)
Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea."
You have absolutely no reason not to do this.... for all intensive purpose this portion of Street Fighter is SOLVED. The only people who are still going to use difficult combos to get their damage is people who can't link into supers.... they are stuck using slower unsafer moves to open combos with so they can get the same damage. This also circles back to why you don't need six buttons.... people are bypassing them anyway.
I'd also like to point that you said ealier that you had problems regarding using execution to balance things out.... perhaps I can go to bed and you can argue with yourself... you already have what you need: two opposing statements.
I'm sorry but what you're describing just isn't very competitive... infact it doesn't even make sense. The fact that you knocked someone down IS your advantage... what you want is another advantage on top of the one you alread have..... thats exactly the very thing thats going to turn DoA into MKX when you give them no options after being downed.... I'd also like to point out the wake up kicks aren't even that powerfull anyway, you can shut both of them down by using a down attack. And you sure as hell aren't going to weaken them by changing their inputs to increase their chances of failure.
Your P4 examples are flimsy.... if the reversals are too strong then fix them... changing their inputs means only the people with Better dexterity can always do them.... the reason this scenario is solved is because the mechanic solved.... changing the input isn't going to change how long its going to take to solve it. It's alreadt solved by anybody who can do it.... you just alienated a bunch of players for litrally no reason.
