Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[SilverKhaos]

I'm getting tired of you going "herp derp free damage." That's not how it works.

Those tools are designed to create a meta game that benefits both parties because while you are fighting at neutral both parties are going through their head with the possible outcomes of the tools that each character has to their disposal. A Jann Lee player wants you to fear his dragon gunner so he can work in his mid game mix up. A Hitomi player wants you to whiff so she can slam you into the wall for a wall juggle. It's all about using those tools to create fear, to force your player to make mistakes. Without those tools the game just becomes completely random, and there is no skill in random, it's just...random.

If you'd actually spend 5 minutes and listen to people when you play them instead of going "oh he's just comboing so I'm going to stop playing" BS and actually learn the mechanics of the damn game you'd understand why these tools are good and how they work. But instead you just go "herp derp free damage, games holding your hand" when that's not even whats going on. Best way to put it is in fighting games the neutral game is like chess and once you break the neutral game it becomes checkmate.

I note how not once did you actually create any sort of argument. All you did was whine that I don't like free damage.

You try to say that they are used for mindgames, when the same effect is achieved without them. Hell, that USED to be the job of the counter system, till they nerfed the damage of that.

Also..."Herp derp'....really? What are you, 14, 15? If so, that would explain a LOT.

Point still stands that free damage is there for literally no reason other than to coddle players. If it were a matter of "make the opponent fear"...the counter system already did that. Or just big punishing attacks, as well. Or throws.

I know the mechanics of the game. Just because I don't exploit them, doesn't mean I don't know them. I want the game to be as challenging and satisfying as possible when I play, hence my "defensive and focus on single strikes" playstyle. Its not for everyone, but it does take a helluva lot more skill than juggling or guaranteed damage, hence why I find it more satisfying.

The fact that you think its "random" is still pretty sad. Mindgames are not "random". If thats the case, then chess must be "random". Hell, any sport out there must be "random" by your definition.


Your problem is that you are too narrow minded. Biggest proof is still that you think that there'd be no valid way to play if a game didn't have juggles.


Sad fact is, free damage kills variety because most people only try to go for said free damage. And it really irks me when people try to act like using free damage makes them more "Skilled" than everyone else. Thats like trying to say beating up a chess player makes you a good boxer. It just defeats the purpose.

Like I said, if you wanna utilize free damage/combos, feel free. But don't try to sit there making excuses trying to justify it. Just own up to the fact to what you are doing: Taking the easiest possible route. And nothing wrong with that per say, just don't try to act like it takes a whole bunch of skill. Or in your case, act like an idiot and try to say that only the way you play characters is "the correct way" lol.


Essentially, your argument is redundant because all the other various options of attacking already serve the purpose of making the opponent fear the attacker. Guaranteed damage isn't the only way to scare someone lol.

There was more I had to say, but I stopped caring halfway through this post, just rambling at this point to kill time. This is kind of an endless argument. I dont' like guaranteed damage because its boring both when I do it, and when its done to me,not to mention it gets really boring seeing people just try to do the same thing over and over again, and you like it because you think it makes the game deeper.

"To each their own" is a lost cause on you.

 

[SilverKhaos]

That isn't a lack of content that's just more of your preference. The only thing considered a "lack" of content is that Ein, Tengu and Leon weren't added. But who gives a fudge about Tengu? No one. He was just thrown in DOA4 just to say we have another character. Ein and Leon is the only ones that is debatable, and even then it is considered minor considering most people can live without and just don't care. Maybe they'll add them in the future. Maybe they won't. I don't see anyone caring(Except Leon and Ein players). And I'm not saying they were bad characters, either.

Also, how do guaranteed damage make the game take LESS skill? If anything it adds to more skill. When you're being punished, or put on defense you have to get out of that situation with more than just a "hold". It also make you more careful of trying to abuse the "hold" system. It forces the defender to think rather than just throw out random holds. A good player is going to punish you. How is that less skill? Not to mention the punish window, and how many tools you can punish with when put in a guaranteed situation. Also, when put in a unholdable stun you still have the options to slow escape. So everything isn't as guaranteed as you think. Sounds like you really should spend more time with the game rather than worrying about what the content is or isn't.

To summarize, it takes more skill for the defender to avoid it, less kill for the attacker to utilize it.

 

[DR2K]

My sister understood the concept of free when she was 3 for what it's worth.

 

[Stikku]

Missing the point. The point is that it takes skill to get in. The free hits are the reward for getting in and practicing so that you could maximize your damage.

it punishes everyone else who actually did understand the full concept of DOA (which would represent a majority of the DOA market). DOA5 holds are less viable because stuns have been increased, and the actual damage that holds do has been reduced. I read a post somewhere of someone saying holds in DOA5 are more like a "slap on the wrist" rather than a "round-changing mechanic," and that just doesn't fly. The Triangle RPS system of previous DOA's catered equally to each corner of the triangle. You could choose a character and decide to play them by being exquisite in Combos, exquisite in Holds, and/or exquisite in Throws. Killing hold viability is killing a whole third of what makes your game unique.

Wheres the reward catering to other parts of the combat then? You don't seem to understand that your so called "reward" is causing a shitstorm among actual fans of DOA, while causing the average joe to bat an eyelash at DOA5 and move on.

The only true reward ya ever needed was landing a punch in the first place. That's your reward. You pressed punch, it landed, it did damage. You shouldn't get free follow up damage, and traditionally along the rules of every previous DOA - ya never really did. I'm mad because people like you think DOA5 was made for you, when in reality you're dragging DOA down as a series.

 

[SilverKhaos]

They're only free if you're opponent is free. If the opponent made you work for them, then they're not.

Apparently you don't if you think that getting in extended damage is free. Unless you have terrible defense, then then the guy who got in worked his ass off to get those hits. More importantly, both of you knew the risks involved and the consequences of failing at the neutral game.

I earned that free hit by getting in on him and getting a hit confirm in.

Missing the point. The point is that it takes skill to get in. The free hits are the reward for getting in and practicing so that you could maximize your damage.

Exactly. And when they can't make you work for them (say, juggles), thats free damage.

And he obviously didn't have to work his ass off if the damage is free. If he had to work his ass off to land them, they wouldn't be a juggle/guaranteed damage. he'd have to work for every hit.

No. you earned the hit you landed on him. You didn't earn the free hits after that. Thats why they are free.

No, you are still missing the point. The hit you landed to punish them is the reward for getting it. Free hits are just free hits, no excuses can be made.

There is literally no justifying free damage as anything other than EXACTLY what it is...free damage that you don't have to work for.

The only way it wouldn't be free is if you had to work for EVERY HIT YOU LAND. Otherwise...its free. Which is the entire point.

My whole issue with it is this. While theres people like you, who see it as a reward for finding and opening (and thats fine), most, however, see it as the goal, and spend the whole match trying to do nothing but that, and that is insanely boring, whether they are successful or not.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Ironic considering a good chunk of guaranteed setups in DoA5 were also in DoA2 and DoA3. If you actually bothered to play those games and learn the tools you might actually know that, but you didn't and now you are criticizing one game while praising the other when both have almost identical setups.

No, it would be a game based entirely on being random. Being random doesn't take any skill at all.



And yet on a technical level DoA5 still plays like a mixture of DoA2U and DoA3.1 with a bit of DoA4's stun game while DoA4 played absolutely nothing like any of the previous DoA games.

It's more like "Holy crap I'm playing like a casual and living in nostalgia and not knowing what I'm talking about!"



No, that's called the reward. The skill is GETTING to that point. Reading your opponents defense and winning in the neutral game. This is the concept you don't seem to be grasping. You don't seem to get the entire risk/reward factor here.

So...same as always then? You just completely ignore what people say and make up whatever it is you wanted to hear lol.

 

[Prince Adon]

To summarize, it takes more skill for the defender to avoid it, less kill for the attacker to utilize it.

Okay let me give you an example. I'm a Lisa player. Her 9K puts you in a sit down stun(on counter hit). In a sit down stun I get a guaranteed 4P(BT). That's the pros. The cons is 9K is so slow a turtle can see it coming. So if you screw up and allow me to hit you with that, especially off an counter hit. That is your fought. I would have to work to make that move not only connect, but with a counter hit in order to get my guaranteed damage. If I can do that to you I feel like I deserve that reward. It did not come free because you get more than enough time to avoid/hold or even block 9K. You can even avoid a counter hit. How does that not make it skillful?

 

[SilverKhaos]

The levels have a lot more going on and have no random elements attached to them(cheetas, dinosaurs, cars, etc. . .) I'm sure you miss all the "skill" there.

You realize that you're complaining about a menu? This menu is more functional than having to scroll all the way through to find what you want.

Execution and muscle memory are skills, being able to randomly hold out of every situation blindly is not. Which is what you're calling skill by the way.

Skill, lol. Seriously drop this game and every other fighter while you're at it, go back to DOA4 so you and Stikku can start a showing the world why DOA4 takes all this skill. Of course that will require one of you to own a copy of DOA4.

Yeah, no lol. Danger zones are not "random". Thats just you not being able to pay attention to whats going on around you.

I'm complaining about the atmosphere, not the menu. The menu is just a part of the whole. Pay attention. Though, to be fair, that hasn't proven to be your strong point.

"randomly hold out of every situation blindly"...so...recognizing your patterns and reacting accordingly with the appropriate counter hold to match your current oncoming attack is "random" and "blind"? Since when? Only time countering random would cut it is you are being an idiot and just mashing one attack over and over.

 

[DR2K]

Yeah, no lol. Danger zones are not "random". Thats just you not being able to pay attention to whats going on around you.

I'm complaining about the atmosphere, not the menu. The menu is just a part of the whole. Pay attention. Though, to be fair, that hasn't proven to be your strong point.

"randomly hold out of every situation blindly"...so...recognizing your patterns and reacting accordingly with the appropriate counter hold to match your current oncoming attack is "random" and "blind"? Since when? Only time countering random would cut it is you are being an idiot and just mashing one attack over and over.

They come at you randomly, with no set interval, you have 0% control of it. Pretty obvious you also lack understanding of the word random.

Really to me it sounds like you're bitching about every little thing that has been updated or changed, regardless of improvement. OMG THE MENU IS NOW BLACK AND RED!!!! WHAT GAME IS THIS!?

Since forever, you're not going to be "recognizing" 9-20 frame moves on reaction all the time, you're going to guess more often than not. Regardless of patterns, you're already admitting that you're guessing.

 

[Stikku]

They come at you randomly, with no set interval, you have 0% control of it. Pretty obvious you also lack understanding of the word random.

Really to me it sounds like you're bitching about every little thing that has been updated or changed, regardless of improvement. OMG THE MENU IS NOW BLACK AND RED!!!! WHAT GAME IS THIS!?

Since forever, you're not going to be "recognizing" 9-20 frame moves on reaction all the time, you're going to guess more often than not. Regardless of patterns, you're already admitting that you're guessing.

The menu and GUI design is the same shit as NG3, which is hipster hardcore edgy garbage that looks like it's meant for a Web2.0 flash website about graffiti. Also, if you can't see 9 frame attacks and react accordingly, you're not trying hard enough. Just because you're slow doesn't mean other people are, and they shouldn't be punished for being better than you.

 

[d3v]

We could go on and on, explaining how the ability to extend and increase damage is earned (and, just as importantly, extends the metagame and allows it to develop beyond what the developers may have foreseen). But it's apparent that you're too set in your scrubby ways to actually listen.

 

[Stikku]

We could go on and on, explaining how the ability to extend and increase damage is earned (and, just as importantly, extends the metagame and allows it to develop beyond what the developers may have foreseen). But it's apparent that you're too set in your scrubby ways to actually listen.

reported

 

[Mr. T]

Also, if you can't see 9 frame attacks and react accordingly, you're not trying hard enough.

Guys! I've found him! It's superman!

 

[Raansu]

So...same as always then? You just completely ignore what people say and make up whatever it is you wanted to hear lol.

I'm not making up anything. It's not my fault you want to take facts as fiction and continue to fail to understand the meaning of risk vs reward. You keep skewing the whole "free" damage thing while failing to realize that the entire point of guaranteed damage is to reward the player for winning at neutral and outplaying their opponent. That's why its called a REWARD. I beat you at neutral, I punished you for your mistakes and you are paying for it, that's how it works, just like in chess, you screw up and its checkmate.

If you don't like being punished for having piss poor defense then go play something else because obviously fighting games are not your forte. If you want a random BS game that takes no skill then go back to DoA4. Sadly for you though you'd still get your face stomped in.

 

[DR2K]

We could go on and on, explaining how the ability to extend and increase damage is earned (and, just as importantly, extends the metagame and allows it to develop beyond what the developers may have foreseen). But it's apparent that you're too set in your scrubby ways to actually listen.

One could only hope that someone else with the same type of complaints is reading this forum and actually learning something.

 

[d3v]

IMO, the whole issue seems to stem from an arbitrary sense of what is "fair." Notice I bolded "arbitrary," because what's really fair in the most concrete sense in a video game is what is allowed in the rules, i.e. the code. In other words, if the code says it's okay for me to hit a guy when he's too stunned to fight back, then that is "fair." It's fair because the other guy has the option to do the same thing to me too.

 

[d3v]

You can't call someone out for "having a piss poor defense" when the game was intentionally designed with the flawed idea of proper defense options being nerfed.

Yes you can when defense is supposed to happen before you get hit.

 

[Stikku]

Yes you can when defense is supposed to happen before you get hit.

Not sure what you're getting at but okay, and I think I agree, unless you're trying to wiggle back into the "Guaranteed combo damage" discussion. The only guaranteed combo damage per the rules of DOA have been juggles and the occasional backturned / knocking-over-a-stage-obstacle setup. If you need any more than that, you may as well just play tekken, and if moving around a 3D environment proves too much to take advantage of obstacles, you may as well just play a 2d fighter. I'm not saying reducing the viability of holds either through reduced damage or through increased unholdable stun situations is a bad idea, but doing both fundamentally makes holds nigh useless in the whole of a fight.

edit: made a half-awake typo by completely typing the wrong word. I fixed it.

 

[Raansu]

You're a fag for considering holds not part of a defense, and their reduced viability in DOA5 as an improvement. You can't call someone out for "having a piss poor defense" when the game was intentionally designed with the flawed idea of proper defense options being nerfed.

I seriously fucking hate you.

I consider holds a random element of the game that should have major restrictions on them and shouldn't even be an option in stun, but that's a whole other argument that I'm not getting into. So lets just keep it simple here. You don't own DoA5, you have never even played DoA5, even if you had, you have no idea what you're talking about, so please both you and Degalon, just shut up already as neither of you have a clue about what you're talking about.

Not sure what you're getting at but okay, and I think I agree, unless you're trying to wiggle back into the "Guaranteed combo damage" discussion. The only guaranteed combo damage per the rules of DOA have been juggles and the occasional backturned / knocking-over-a-stage-obstacle setup. If you need any more than that, you may as well just play tekken, and if moving around a 3D environment proves too much to take advantage of obstacles, you may as well just play a 2d fighter.

Ya uh...no... DoA2U was riddled with guaranteed damage and there was even more in DoA3/3.1

Jann Lee had guaranteed damage from his mid punch hold and his dragon gunner in both 2U and 3. He also got a guaranteed launcher from a back stagger in both 2U and 3 that was *gasp* removed in 4 and brought back in 5 (*gasp* omg you mean doa5 actually uses legit doa tools? NOWAI! And here I thought DoA5 didn't play like DoA! /sarcasm)

Ein had a guaranteed 46p from one of his BT throws where he grabbed you by the head and kneed you. He also got a guaranteed 46p from 2p on counter hit as well as a good chunk of the rest of the cast in both 2U and in 3. Hitomi gets the same setup from 2U and 3 with 2p.

Ryu, Gen Fu and other characters that got ceiling attacks got guaranteed follow ups from them in 2U.

Gen Fu got guaranteed follow ups from his 2f+p in 2U and in 3.

Ayane got guaranteed follow ups from 4f+p and she had a back stagger with a guaranteed launcher follow up.

Bayman and Tina got guaranteed setups into ground throws.

Leifang got guaranteed follow ups from her mid kick hold and from a BT wall throw in both 2U and 3 that are *gasp* both back in DoA5 (they granted nothing in 4 and were useless animations).

Kasumi got guaranteed setups from her teleport parries in both 2U and 3.

This is why I get annoyed when people like you and Degalon talk about DoA5 not being DoA when it literally brought tools back that have always been in DoA with the exception of DoA4. Neither of you know wth you are talking about and are trying to make arguments that are completely false.

 

[Mr. T]

I'm just not lazy. Or bad. (most people aren't)

Can i interest you in a wager good sir? Three lights, each will light up at my discretion, one at a time. You are to select the lit light within 0.15 seconds. Three correct selections out of five will net you a win. The wager is 200$. You game?