Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[Prince Adon]

Exactly. And when they can't make you work for them (say, juggles), thats free damage.

You're looking at things one sided which is your problem. If your defense sucks that is your problem. That person should learn how to play the game. The samething could be said if it was "offense". Not everyone know how to use frame data, and knows how to go for guaranteed stuff. That's like saying you should buff the offense for a no brainer to just be able to beat you. You have to "learn" how to use those offensive tactics. You're just not going to magically pull off guaranteed stuff. Just like you have to learn how to play defense to avoid bad situations. It's like that in ANY fighting game.

 

[Rikuto]

You missed the point. Being able to overcome it isn't the (or even AN) issue. Having to deal with it all the time, however, is. I play DOA, to play DOA, not to play Tekken.

I'm playing DOA. I'm playing it as close to DOA 3.1 as I possibly can, in fact. I'm doing that with Rig.

It sounds like you're playing it like DOA 4, which is ok too. I think you are getting some ideas twisted on what DOA actually is, though.

 

[RyuJin]

I note how not once did you actually create any sort of argument. All you did was whine that I don't like free damage.

You try to say that they are used for mindgames, when the same effect is achieved without them. Hell, that USED to be the job of the counter system, till they nerfed the damage of that.

Also..."Herp derp'....really? What are you, 14, 15? If so, that would explain a LOT.

Point still stands that free damage is there for literally no reason other than to coddle players. If it were a matter of "make the opponent fear"...the counter system already did that. Or just big punishing attacks, as well. Or throws.

I know the mechanics of the game. Just because I don't exploit them, doesn't mean I don't know them. I want the game to be as challenging and satisfying as possible when I play, hence my "defensive and focus on single strikes" playstyle. Its not for everyone, but it does take a helluva lot more skill than juggling or guaranteed damage, hence why I find it more satisfying.

The fact that you think its "random" is still pretty sad. Mindgames are not "random". If thats the case, then chess must be "random". Hell, any sport out there must be "random" by your definition.


Your problem is that you are too narrow minded. Biggest proof is still that you think that there'd be no valid way to play if a game didn't have juggles.


Sad fact is, free damage kills variety because most people only try to go for said free damage. And it really irks me when people try to act like using free damage makes them more "Skilled" than everyone else. Thats like trying to say beating up a chess player makes you a good boxer. It just defeats the purpose.

Like I said, if you wanna utilize free damage/combos, feel free. But don't try to sit there making excuses trying to justify it. Just own up to the fact to what you are doing: Taking the easiest possible route. And nothing wrong with that per say, just don't try to act like it takes a whole bunch of skill. Or in your case, act like an idiot and try to say that only the way you play characters is "the correct way" lol.


Essentially, your argument is redundant because all the other various options of attacking already serve the purpose of making the opponent fear the attacker. Guaranteed damage isn't the only way to scare someone lol.

There was more I had to say, but I stopped caring halfway through this post, just rambling at this point to kill time. This is kind of an endless argument. I dont' like guaranteed damage because its boring both when I do it, and when its done to me,not to mention it gets really boring seeing people just try to do the same thing over and over again, and you like it because you think it makes the game deeper.

"To each their own" is a lost cause on you.

Sorry but I'm not going to read 10 pages to find out what is going on here. My question is what free damage are we talking about? There are no single hit launchers...that are faster then 20 frames. Well I don't think there are anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong? So where is this free damage coming from? A Juggle is not free damage so you must be talking about something else?

 

[Raansu]

Sorry but I'm not going to read 10 pages to find out what is going on here. My question is what free damage are we talking about? There are no single hit launchers...that are faster then 20 frames. Well I don't think there are anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong? So where is this free damage coming from? A Juggle is not free damage so you must be talking about something else?

His problem is he thinks anything that he can't counter out of is bad thus the "free damage" shtick. Of course he fails to realize that he had the chance to stop the launcher, but he wont admit to that mistake. It's clearly not his fault he's being juggled and its clearly unfair that he cant counter out of a juggle *rolls eyes*

 

[ookamunka]

I know the mechanics of the game. Just because I don't exploit them, doesn't mean I don't know them. I want the game to be as challenging and satisfying as possible when I play, hence my "defensive and focus on single strikes" playstyle. Its not for everyone, but it does take a helluva lot more skill than juggling or guaranteed damage, hence why I find it more satisfying.

Self imposing opinionated rules that limit what you do while may be more challenging, it doesn't, in any way, shape, or form, make you a better player. Nobody cares about what you think is fair, what you think SHOULD be, the only the matters is the rules laid out by the game. The better player is who wins under those rules.

Sad fact is, free damage kills variety because most people only try to go for said free damage. And it really irks me when people try to act like using free damage makes them more "Skilled" than everyone else. That's like trying to say beating up a chess player makes you a good boxer. It just defeats the purpose.

It's not fucking free damage. Juggles have been around since DOA1. You don't wanna get hit with a juggle? Don't get launched. It's pretty fucking simple. You need to stop thinking that juggles are these "free hits" and instead realize that launchers just do a fuckton of damage. If my launcher does 40% and 1 hit, instead of 10% with a 30% juggle followup, how is that magically not free?? It's the same fucking thing. Deal with it.

Like I said, if you wanna utilize free damage/combos, feel free. But don't try to sit there making excuses trying to justify it. Just own up to the fact to what you are doing: Taking the easiest possible route. And nothing wrong with that per say, just don't try to act like it takes a whole bunch of skill. Or in your case, act like an idiot and try to say that only the way you play characters is "the correct way" lol.

The correct way is to play to win. Usually that means taking ALL of the tools that are available to you and using them to it's fullest. If someone wins using the easiest possible route, it don't give a fuck what fancy schmancy moves, tactics, honorable 1 hit only no jugglezkplzthx tactics you throw out, if you lost, sorry, you're NOT the better player. The cpu says the other guy is.

There was more I had to say, but I stopped caring halfway through this post, just rambling at this point to kill time. This is kind of an endless argument. I don't' like guaranteed damage because its boring both when I do it, and when its done to me,not to mention it gets really boring seeing people just try to do the same thing over and over again, and you like it because you think it makes the game deeper.

"To each their own" is a lost cause on you.

The problem is your convoluted acute honorable playstyle that you've invented does absolutely nothing to make a player actually better at the game. You're self imposing these rules and code of ethics which only creates a ceiling to the skill level you can reach. I thought this was a site for "competitive" DOA, i.e. how to get better, how to master the system, not complain about it or how there isn't enough costumes or how the eyeliner on hitomi isn't the same as the last game or other dumb shit that doesn't matter in a competitive setting. There are other sites for that garbage.

Sounds to me you have two choices. (Stikku this goes for you too!) You play the game based on how you want it to be, you continue to argue with competitive fighting game veterans who you have no chance in hell of persuading, and you remain an online scrub the rest of your life. Or you play the game for what it is, give up these preconceived notions of what you believe is fair, legit, boring, and realize what competitive fighting games are all about.

 

[RyuJin]

His problem is he thinks anything that he can't counter out of is bad thus the "free damage" shtick. Of course he fails to realize that he had the chance to stop the launcher, but he wont admit to that mistake. It's clearly not his fault he's being juggled and its clearly unfair that he cant counter out of a juggle *rolls eyes*

Never mind then I thought there was more to it then that. If you are having problems with your defense SilverKhaos try using practice mode for string recognition. Also learning frame data will help as well. This way you don't attack out of disadvantage giving your opponent a stun or launch.

No stun, launch, juggle, etc are "free" unless you give it to your opponent. If you use Kasumi's 6,6k,k its -3 on block. While that is safe if you "choice" to continue to attack afterwords your fastest option would be p. Her punch is 9 frames. if you fight a character like Jann Lee or Gen fu that 11 frame mids you are going to be in a world of hurt. The 11 frame mid will beat out your 9 frame punch which is not 12 frames due to you attack after Kasumi's 6,6k,k was blocked.

At this point you are stunned and have to guess between the a stun extender or a launcher which can be mid punch, kick, high kick, etc. The point is that if you play a safer game you don't get stunned which will not lead to a the launcher into what you "think" is a free juggle.

 

[TakedaZX]

I read all of page 9 and I can't even follow what this argument has come to... I think someone is saying guaranteed damage shouldn't be in DOA4, and someone is saying holds should be a defensive option from stun?

Maybe I'm not following but I have my own question... Tekken has strikes as does DOA, Tekken has Launchers with guaranteed follow ups, DOA has that too, Tekken has bread and butter combos, so does DOA. Tekken has parries, and so does DOA(guaranteed follow ups off a Low Parry in Tekken and certain characters like Asuka have their own parries). Tekken has a variety of different fighting styles, and so does DOA. What else does Tekken have? That's right, really not much more...

See that's not to say it needs more. It's a solid game, but wouldn't it mean Dead or Alive has more depth too it? Have we established this already?

Dead or Alive's strikes can create stuns which can lead to greater launch heights for better juggles, more damaging juggles at that. The guaranteed follow ups are in the launchers or in the options after the stun that lead up to the end of the stun threshold. You also have the crush system which is available in most fighters.

Dead or Alive's defensive stance includes blocking and parries/holds that can reverse the offensive momentum if you know what's coming(or in some cases, where an opponent's string usually ends. You can also block it out and/or duck, and interrupt during a disadvantaging move for the opponent. Hopefully getting the counter hit so that you can get the higher launch height or the better stun so you can fish for more damage and the Critical Burst launch height possibly.

We've got fighting styles.

Am I missing something about depth? Do we not have it because of our hold system? Someone enlighten me on what "depth" really is, because if I'm not mistaken, DOA would really have to most of it but I honestly don't understand. ._.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

It's not fucking free damage. Juggles have been around since DOA1. You don't wanna get hit with a juggle? Don't get launched. It's pretty fucking simple. You need to stop thinking that juggles are these "free hits" and instead realize that launchers just do a fuckton of damage. If my launcher does 40% and 1 hit, instead of 10% with a 30% juggle followup, how is that magically not free?? It's the same fucking thing. Deal with it.

The crux is that it actually is not. Aesthetically, certainly not on the basis on the level of sheer visual absurdity. But it's effectively an illusory strategy contingency. If player A hasn't memorized the entire juggle game and plays a superior neutral/stun game, player B may still win. That's unimaginative design, rewarding the wrong kind of execution. It's the execution that gets players like me wins that we really don't deserve on the strategy alone, which means that much of the game becomes astrategic.

It's not as simple as "we can't do it, so we need it to go away". It's that it is actually unimaginative design in and of itself. Period. Even a game that automated the entire juggle sequence would be a superior game, though it would as easily expose how absurd the enterprise is strategically.

And of course they're not strategically impossible to beat, or that the juggler didn't do anything to get the juggle damage. Misses the point by five miles. Nor is it in any way associated with the argument that, in the current DOA5, that a juggler deserved it less.

Not that they'll go away. Or that I agree with anyone who says that people who use juggles are playing DOA badly, because it is the game that is given and how the rewards are given.

Am I missing something about depth? Do we not have it because of our hold system? Someone enlighten me on what "depth" really is, because if I'm not mistaken, DOA would really have to most of it but I honestly don't understand. ._.

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Not all sure who would be advocating any of these positions out of issues of "depth" alone. It does go to what kind of things people do find to be the best elements of the game itself that should be highlighted or not. These aren't total hypotheticals, either. DOA5 clearly took steps in favoring certain mechanical decisions over 4, many of them for the better. The game can be expected to continue to shift this way if sequels continue to be made.​

 

[ookamunka]

The crux is that it actually is not. Aesthetically, certainly not on the basis on the level of sheer visual absurdity. But it's effectively an illusory strategy contingency. If player A hasn't memorized the entire juggle game and plays a superior neutral/stun game, player B may still win. That's unimaginative design, rewarding the wrong kind of execution. It's the execution that gets players like me wins that we really don't deserve on the strategy alone, which means that much of the game becomes astrategic.

Fighting games have always been a mix of strategy and execution. Even a series that has pathetically low execution standards such as DOA, so I don't see what point you're trying to make. If player A hasn't memorized his combos, then he hasn't done his homework, and can't maximize his damage when he does outthink his opponent, and if he loses than he loses. That's part of any fighting game.

I'm sorry but I'm having trouble comprehending what you're trying to say exactly. It sounds like you could have said what you wanted to in 1/2 the words if you chose more concise and comprehensible ways of getting your point across.

I know I might have come across as a bit harsh, but that's because of all this spouting of how the game should be x and y instead of a and b to make it more competitive, when these people don't even have the correct competitive mindset in order to make any sort of educated opinion on what makes or doesn't make a game more competitive.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

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Fighting games have always been a mix of strategy and execution. Even a series that has pathetically low execution standards such as DOA, so I don't see what point you're trying to make. If player A hasn't memorized his combos, then he hasn't done his homework, and can't maximize his damage when he does outthink his opponent, and if he loses than he loses. That's part of any fighting game.

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I'm sorry but I'm having trouble comprehending what you're trying to say exactly. It sounds like you could have said what you wanted to in 1/2 the words if you chose more concise and comprehensible ways of getting your point across.​

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I know I might have come across as a bit harsh, but that's because of all this spouting of how the game should be x and y instead of a and b to make it more competitive, when these people don't even have the correct competitive mindset in order to make any sort of educated opinion on what makes or doesn't make a game more competitive.​

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Totally fair call on my rhetoric​

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But I still do call out that "homework". I mean, I'm often very impressed in practice by people who have done a lot of it. But the more time thinking of maximizing a guarantee as "homework" rather than drills that actually involve making strategic decisions, the less potent the game is strategically. (Some of this actually is the execution to make the intended strategic decisions, and that bar can be as high as the sky as far as good game design goes) I'd prefer fighting games in general, and especially this one, to be more strategic and think it'd be more meaningfully competitive if it was.​

 

[ookamunka]

Fair enough. Actually, coming from a primarily 2d fighter background, one of the reasons I think I got into DOA moreso than Tekken or VF is the fact that I do have to worry less about execution, and most bnb juggles are pretty easy to remember as well, which allows me to focus on metagame, which, like all 3d fighters, I feel like I'm still missing something. But yeah, having played much more complicated games in terms of execution and memorization, I tend to automatically think them as non issues when I look at DOA. Here are the launchers, here are juggles for low and high heights, big and little characters, good to go!

I will still contend that a 40% 1 hitter and a 10% launcher + 30% juggle is the same thing, because when you're talking about the strategy and the matchup, treating that launcher as the point of damage helps you avoid getting hit by the combo to begin with, and helps prioritize your defense to make sure you aren't getting hit by it.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

I will still contend that a 40% 1 hitter and a 10% launcher + 30% juggle is the same thing, because when you're talking about the strategy and the matchup, treating that launcher as the point of damage helps you avoid getting hit by the combo to begin with, and helps prioritize your defense to make sure you aren't getting hit by it.

This isn't wrong, but it shouldn't be that way. If it's going to be considered a guaranteed 40% in theory, it should be treated like a 40% in practice. A new player should be able to immediately see and act on that as 40% with all of the same strategy as a veteran, forcing the veteran to continually play a better executed strategy game rather than relying on experience differentials in combo execution alone. (The term execution is too broad, really.)

I do see what you mean, though. And I agree it could be much worse, which is part of why I like DOA. I think this is a game that could make all execution strategic in form and it would play really well and be excellent. It would not need to threaten the neutral game or anything like that; serious damage could still be guaranteed.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Self imposing opinionated rules that limit what you do while may be more challenging, it doesn't, in any way, shape, or form, make you a better player. Nobody cares about what you think is fair, what you think SHOULD be, the only the matters is the rules laid out by the game. The better player is who wins under those rules.



It's not fucking free damage. Juggles have been around since DOA1. You don't wanna get hit with a juggle? Don't get launched. It's pretty fucking simple. You need to stop thinking that juggles are these "free hits" and instead realize that launchers just do a fuckton of damage. If my launcher does 40% and 1 hit, instead of 10% with a 30% juggle followup, how is that magically not free?? It's the same fucking thing. Deal with it.



The correct way is to play to win. Usually that means taking ALL of the tools that are available to you and using them to it's fullest. If someone wins using the easiest possible route, it don't give a fuck what fancy schmancy moves, tactics, honorable 1 hit only no jugglezkplzthx tactics you throw out, if you lost, sorry, you're NOT the better player. The cpu says the other guy is.



The problem is your convoluted acute honorable playstyle that you've invented does absolutely nothing to make a player actually better at the game. You're self imposing these rules and code of ethics which only creates a ceiling to the skill level you can reach. I thought this was a site for "competitive" DOA, i.e. how to get better, how to master the system, not complain about it or how there isn't enough costumes or how the eyeliner on hitomi isn't the same as the last game or other dumb shit that doesn't matter in a competitive setting. There are other sites for that garbage.

Sounds to me you have two choices. (Stikku this goes for you too!) You play the game based on how you want it to be, you continue to argue with competitive fighting game veterans who you have no chance in hell of persuading, and you remain an online scrub the rest of your life. Or you play the game for what it is, give up these preconceived notions of what you believe is fair, legit, boring, and realize what competitive fighting games are all about.

Never mind then I thought there was more to it then that. If you are having problems with your defense SilverKhaos try using practice mode for string recognition. Also learning frame data will help as well. This way you don't attack out of disadvantage giving your opponent a stun or launch.

No stun, launch, juggle, etc are "free" unless you give it to your opponent. If you use Kasumi's 6,6k,k its -3 on block. While that is safe if you "choice" to continue to attack afterwords your fastest option would be p. Her punch is 9 frames. if you fight a character like Jann Lee or Gen fu that 11 frame mids you are going to be in a world of hurt. The 11 frame mid will beat out your 9 frame punch which is not 12 frames due to you attack after Kasumi's 6,6k,k was blocked.

At this point you are stunned and have to guess between the a stun extender or a launcher which can be mid punch, kick, high kick, etc. The point is that if you play a safer game you don't get stunned which will not lead to a the launcher into what you "think" is a free juggle.

Hm? I have no issue with stopping the launchers or anything like that, Raansu's just making his usual excuses to try and avoid the point. I was just griping about how idiotic the concept of juggling is period, how much it holds the FGC back by coddling the less skilled players by offering them free damage, etc.

He was just pulling the usual "u just mad bcuz u lost" bs, in an attempt to dodge the point.

I specialize in defense, I don't have any issues with that aspect.

I'm fairly good at reading and predicting people, I pride myself on that. Stopping the juggles isnt an issue. Or relevant to what I was saying.

I was just pointing out how any damage the opponent can't retaliate against is essentially free, and they really don't like having that pointed out, because they (rightfully) take offense to it.

 

[Mr. T]

I don't get it Silverkhaos, in this world nothing is free, if you want free damage you must first out maneuver your opponent, then you maximize your potential damage. Secondly, have you tried Super smash bros? It does not seem to me like doa, tekken, or sf etc is for you. Juggles are used as a means to up the so called "skill cap" which in turn is the often times insurmountable gap between a person who has master every aspect of a game (inc. juggles) and one that has not.

 

[Django]

a juggle is nothing more then a combo get over it.

 

[SilverKhaos]

I don't get it Silverkhaos, in this world nothing is free, if you want free damage you must first out maneuver your opponent, then you maximize your potential damage. Secondly, have you tried Super smash bros? It does not seem to me like doa, tekken, or sf etc is for you. Juggles are used as a means to up the so called "skill cap" which in turn is the often times insurmountable gap between a person who has master every aspect of a game (inc. juggles) and one that has not.

The issue mainly stems from how...lets say how you mentioned that if you wanted the free damage, then you must first outmaneuver your opponent and then maximize your potential damage.

A lot of people see that as "If A happens, then B happens", with A being the initial punishing blow earned through outmaneuvering the opponent, and B being the juggle/free hits (though I'm speaking more of each individual hit than the juggle/combo as a whole). They see it as a given, essentially one combined move.

I, on the other hand, see them as two seperate things. As in, rather than "If A, then B" I see it as "A, and/or B". And more importantly, I believe that everyone should have to earn B as well as A, rather than simply be given B just because they got A. Hence my harsher comments of certain people being entitled/spoiled in defending the former belief, because the argument has boiled down to little more than "Well I did A, so it HAS to give me B." From the people I argue with.

That make sense?

 

[Raansu]

I specialize in defense, I don't have any issues with that aspect.

I'm fairly good at reading and predicting people, I pride myself on that. Stopping the juggles isnt an issue. Or relevant to what I was saying.

Specializing in something requires you to actually be good at it...To be frank, your neutral game is trash. Getting past your defense was ridiculously easy, and then once I stunned you and did a juggle you pretty much just stopped playing...Didn't even bother holding out of the stuns that were holdable or even attempt to slow escape or stop the launcher.

You talk about how good you are at defense and how you "can" stop the setups, but all the matches I played against you and all the matches I watched you play against other players...your defense is crap. Fact is, stopping a juggle IS an issue for you but you just go "oh I simply choose not to because it aint fun" and then go and complain about it while having zero understanding of how fighting games even work.

 

[ookamunka]

Hm? I have no issue with stopping the launchers or anything like that, Raansu's just making his usual excuses to try and avoid the point. I was just griping about how idiotic the concept of juggling is period, how much it holds the FGC back by coddling the less skilled players by offering them free damage, etc.
He was just pulling the usual "u just mad bcuz u lost" bs, in an attempt to dodge the point.

This is the problem right here. This is ALL opinion. Getting a juggle after a launcher has nothing to do with either player's skill, other than the physical requirement in order to complete the moves for the juggle. It simply is. Landing those juggles consistently means you are the better player, because you understand how to capitalize on your opponents mistake, and maximize your damage. Like I've said before, who is the better player is determined by the W and the L, it has nothing to do with what they can do, how well they can block, whether they do 20% combos or 80% combos. The only objective and fair way to determine who the better player is is by the rules of the game and that's it, because anything else is subjective.

A lot of people see that as "If A happens, then B happens", with A being the initial punishing blow earned through outmaneuvering the opponent, and B being the juggle/free hits (though I'm speaking more of each individual hit than the juggle/combo as a whole). They see it as a given, essentially one combined move.
I, on the other hand, see them as two seperate things. As in, rather than "If A, then B" I see it as "A, and/or B". And more importantly, I believe that everyone should have to earn B as well as A, rather than simply be given B just because they got A. Hence my harsher comments of certain people being entitled/spoiled in defending the former belief, because the argument has boiled down to little more than "Well I did A, so it HAS to give me B." From the people I argue with.

But that's not the way the game (or ANY fighting game!) works! Launchers ARE indeed "if A, then B" there is no other way around it. If you miss the combo or choose not to follow it up, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. You EARN B by hitting with A, as opposed to just hitting with C (C=non juggle move). This of course brings up a new level of complexity to the game, as now you have to decide how you want to do your damage, do you want to go the safer and easier route by using C type moves, or learn ways to set your opponent up so you can land that A move in order to take off that much more damage.

Like others said, maybe competitive fighters aren't for you. It's not like this concept of juggles is new, it's existed since the very first Mortal Kombat. Launchers are good moves because not only do they do damage themselves, but they lead to extra damage. By your logic, if someone has a PP natural combo, you believe that you should be able to block the 2nd P even though the first one hit, because you didn't EARN that 2nd hit?? So Street Fighter would be a better game if you couldn't do a low mk into a fireball? DOA and Tekken would be better games if you coudln't hit people off the ground? You shouldn't be able to continue hitting someone after they hit a wall? The list can go on and on. If you're going to say you have to earn your juggles, you have to say the same for every combo in every fighting game. Hell even Smash Bros has juggles and combos.

 

[Rikuto]

This isn't wrong, but it shouldn't be that way. If it's going to be considered a guaranteed 40% in theory, it should be treated like a 40% in practice. A new player should be able to immediately see and act on that as 40% with all of the same strategy as a veteran, forcing the veteran to continually play a better executed strategy game rather than relying on experience differentials in combo execution alone. (The term execution is too broad, really.)

I do see what you mean, though. And I agree it could be much worse, which is part of why I like DOA. I think this is a game that could make all execution strategic in form and it would play really well and be excellent. It would not need to threaten the neutral game or anything like that; serious damage could still be guaranteed.

Remove the execution barrier and all you're playing is rock paper scissors with some math and random shit lying around.

Seriously, I don't think you comprehend just how horrible that game would be.

 

[shinryu]

This thread is the embodiment of the FGC pointing at us and laughing. Goddamn. DOA is non-competitive because a lot of you refuse to compete. End of story.

Look, aesthetically, I don't like juggles. They're a legacy solution and I think a purely stun-based game would actually be pretty cool if for no other reason than just looking better. But they're in the game and if you're not using them you're crippling yourself. Also, with some very few exceptions, DOA juggles are about as braindead as possible (generally mashing one or two strings out). This is still very much not Tekken where if you spend years getting the EWGF down you're a death machine. I hate that kind of crap and it's a reason I don't like Tekken as much as I like VF/DOA (along with the general shittiness of the throw game and the whole wall carry to gg thing that seems to go on). In general, DOA execution is pretty easy. It's about as close to the ideal CJ is describing as I would imagine possible outside of some dumb crap like the Izuna. It is sort of the EWGF of the series.

As far as people who somehow refuse to use frames or do their homework, well, yeah; you don't do the homework you fail at school and you will probably get schooled here. The whole game is about doing the homework (knowing your moves) and then doing the research (figuring out how they work best together). As an example, I never used to force tech with Tina till about three days ago and now it looks like it's really the core of her game since frame advantage is such a precious situation for her and she gives up very little damage to get good force techs. Mila should also almost never ground throw except after a few post-juggle situations because her force tech is deadly as hell, but she can't really set it up from a stun or juggle as easily so it's more situational. Bayman, on the other hand is probably usually better off ground throwing from a lot of situations seeing as he gets much much more damage from the juggle to ground throw than he does off the force tech setup. You don't know the moves and experiment and you don't find this sort of thing out. The game evolves and leaves you behind.

This sort of tradeoff, incidentally, is where a great deal of the depth of DOA is. Do I go for the stun extension or try to get something guaranteed? Which one do I use? Should I force a tech or should I take the better damage from a launcher or ground throw? Wall carry or big damage? Is it worth holding or do I try to slow escape and hope to block out/minimize the damage? This is all tactical decision making you cannot make without doing the homework and knowing the frames. Do the math or somebody who did is going to do you.

TL;DR: If you don't like how the game plays, don't play the game. There is bullshit in games that make them broken (like an infinite) and using those is dickery, but by and large nothing in DOA is in that league. You don't do serious players any favors by playing by your own half-assed rules either. The depth is only how deep you dig it.