1.03A Revision - Is Helena's ground game back?

[HaJiN]

When DoA5 1.03 was originally released, it came with a note saying, "Fixed a bug when an opponent was already in some stuns which cannot be tech rolled and a followup attack was made, then the un-tech-rollable status was maintained."

I THINK this is the note that took away her ground game as far as . But Team Ninja just updated the DoA5 site with the 1.03A revision with a note saying:

Disabled tech rolls for certain moves for which tech rolls had mistakenly been allowed in Ver. 1.03.
*The following Ver. 1.03 bug fix was reverted to its previous state: "Fixed a bug when an opponent was already in some stuns which cannot be tech rolled and a followup attack was made, then the un-tech-rollable status was maintained."

It says that they enabled tech rolling again for certain moves. I wonder which moves are included in the update. I just hope it includes Helena's 33p4p and its derivatives. Here's to hoping.

Am I reading this right? Thoughts?

 

[DR2K]

Yes, it's back.

 

[HaJiN]

HELL YES!

 

[Akumasama]

I don't understand this, I'm too noob of an Helena player and would love to learn.
Can anybody link to a youtube video where I can see this ground game being used?

I don't really understand how it's used and what are its advantages. I'm having issues with ground game in DoA5 compared to DoA4. Most of the times my attacks will wiff because of exact tech roll or because of a delayed one that somehow will still make my attacks wiff and leave me open for the opponent's attacks.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I don't understand this, I'm too noob of an Helena player and would love to learn.
Can anybody link to a youtube video where I can see this ground game being used?

I don't really understand how it's used and what are its advantages. I'm having issues with ground game in DoA5 compared to DoA4. Most of the times my attacks will wiff because of exact tech roll or because of a delayed one that somehow will still make my attacks wiff and leave me open for the opponent's attacks.

I have a number of replays but I don't focus on her force tech's much. Without a video supplement I will break it down as easy as I can.

Go to the lab and do this:
9K > 33P4P > 6P
Here's how it works, if the opponent tech's as soon a 33P4P causes them to hit the ground 6P will whiff but you will still have +4 frames off advantage over your opponent.

If the opponent doesn't tech immediately when 33P4P hits them into the ground 6P will hit them forcing them up off of the ground giving you +24 frames of advantage.

No matter whether they tech up themselves or allow you to force them up you have frame advantage. This set ups also stops them from being able to use wake ups kicks seeing as if they don't tech immediately and try to use a wake up kick her 6P will force them up before they can do one.

It's called a psudo force tech because she cannot guarantee the ability to force them up but no matter what they are getting up straight away, without a wake up kick.

I'm afraid I can't make it any easier to understand.

 

[Akumasama]

No need to worry it was explained very well I actually use that very often and love it but the majority of good players always perform techroll so it always wiff. I wasn't aware that I still had 4 frames of advantages even when it wiffs.
When it does I usually did nothing, annoyed my punch whiffed, now I'll know to just stay offensive, with the advantages for 4 frames. Nice!

Thanks

 

[EyeLovePumpkins]

No need to worry it was explained very well I actually use that very often and love it but the majority of good players always perform techroll so it always wiff. I wasn't aware that I still had 4 frames of advantages even when it wiffs.
When it does I usually did nothing, annoyed my punch whiffed, now I'll know to just stay offensive, with the advantages for 4 frames. Nice!

Thanks

Against good players that always tech, I would just omit the and low sweep() if I predict they attack, grab if they try to guard/counter while Helena is still in BKO. If they do tech themselves, they will be close enough for you to do all that stuff.

 

[Demoth]

Not to sound whiny, but how is this fair? I mean, doesn't this pretty much turn every match with Helena into a giant guessing game / gamble for both parties?

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Not to sound whiny, but how is this fair? I mean, doesn't this pretty much turn every match with Helena into a giant guessing game / gamble for both parties?

The worst characters in DOA5 are the characters that are stuck playing DOA4's stun game. She is nothing but constant guessing seeing as she doesn't have the tools to land guarantee much of anything. You think that what she has is more unfair than a character who can hit you with one attack and guarantee another 80 points of your health bar?

Helena is the same speed as a grappler, has low end damage output, lousy +13 sit down stuns, only one real safe move, crappy ranged tools and dodgy crushes. This is offset by her ability to continue pressure by having +4 after comboing the opponent. To do this she has to gain the momentum and get you up in the air which isn't always easy, especially against characters that are more evasive or faster than she is.

 

[Demoth]

The worst characters in DOA5 are the characters that are stuck playing DOA4's stun game. She is nothing but constant guessing seeing as she doesn't have the tools to land guarantee much of anything. You think that what she has is more unfair than a character who can hit you with one attack and guarantee another 80 points of your health bar?

Helena is the same speed as a grappler, has low end damage output, lousy +13 sit down stuns, only one real safe move, crappy ranged tools and dodgy crushes. This is offset by her ability to continue pressure by having +4 after comboing the opponent. To do this she has to gain the momentum and get you up in the air which isn't always easy, especially against characters that are more evasive or faster than she is.

I don't know if I can agree with the speed or damage assessment, seeing as so many high rank players use her online and in tournaments. She seems to knock everyone out of everything and always be sending other pro-players sailing constantly for 13 hit combos.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I don't know if I can agree with the speed or damage assessment, seeing as so many high rank players use her online and in tournaments. She seems to knock everyone out of everything and always be sending other pro-players sailing constantly for 13 hit combos.

An average combo for Helena: 33P > P4P > 4PK > 4P > 4PPP. That hits 11 times and in that combo the opponent gets the opportunity to counter out of it 4 to 5 times. In DOA5 having combo's with that many loop holes and never being able to guarantee the next hit is awful. When people do combo's like that and don't get countered it's not because Helena is good or OP it's because the opponent never guessed correctly.

People like Emann, Mamba and other players whose names I can't remember have been playing Helena since at least DOA4. I've been playing her since DOA2 on the Dreamcast, that's 12 years now. Sometimes character experience pays off.

 

[Raansu]

The worst characters in DOA5 are the characters that are stuck playing DOA4's stun game. She is nothing but constant guessing seeing as she doesn't have the tools to land guarantee much of anything. You think that what she has is more unfair than a character who can hit you with one attack and guarantee another 80 points of your health bar?

Helena is the same speed as a grappler, has low end damage output, lousy +13 sit down stuns, only one real safe move, crappy ranged tools and dodgy crushes. This is offset by her ability to continue pressure by having +4 after comboing the opponent. To do this she has to gain the momentum and get you up in the air which isn't always easy, especially against characters that are more evasive or faster than she is.

She may be stuck playing DoA4, but fortunately for her she has 5 billion ways to open up that stun game and every situation is 70/30 in her favor. She's not broken, but her set ups are fucking brain dead easy considering that most of her shit you can't SE out of and it forces you to guess with a hold. Topple that with a BKO duck that she can spam and it's just dumb. Her low's need to be like Kokoro's. That shit should only stun on counter hit and BKO duck should have high evasiveness but have a long ass recovery too it. None of that spamming 22 shit. Of course half of the BKO BS would be fixed if the game had proper throw breaks. Instead you're stuck having to block and get thrown or try to avoid the throw and eat another stun that cannot be SE'd.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

She may be stuck playing DoA4, but fortunately for her she has 5 billion ways to open up that stun game and every situation is 70/30 in her favor. She's not broken, but her set ups are fucking brain dead easy considering that most of her shit you can't SE out of and it forces you to guess with a hold. Topple that with a BKO duck that she can spam and it's just dumb. Her low's need to be like Kokoro's. That shit should only stun on counter hit and BKO duck should have high evasiveness but have a long ass recovery too it. None of that spamming 22 shit. Of course half of the BKO BS would be fixed if the game had proper throw breaks. Instead you're stuck having to block and get thrown or try to avoid the throw and eat another stun that cannot be SE'd.

#1 Her force tech set ups are brain dead yes. This is evident in all the Helena videos I watch, players can do her force tech combo's and everything else they screw up.
#2 BKO duck is not spammable, most strings she cannot duck constantly even if the next mid doesn't hit low due to the recovery nerf. Quite often I duck one mid and get hit by the next one before I can duck again.
#3 Her lows should be -4 on hit? Awesome, she hit hits you with a low and and then needs another 10 frames on top of that to cancel out of BKO and block. Great she hit you with an obvious low and now she's at -14, that makes a whole lot of sense. Why should you get rewarded because you failed to block?

I'm not exactly over the moon with how Helena turned out in DOA5. I'd happily see a nerf to how much stun she gets from some of her lows as long as move like 8PP2P became +2 instead of -5 on NH so she could maintain pressure rather than being forced to block after hitting you.

Some of her shit is dumb but everything is pure garbage. It's crappy balance but it's better than her being just plain OP.

 

[HaJiN]

Helena's bokuho duck was most abusable in DOA 2 and 3, when she absolutely needed it. Because of her lower tier status, it was an integral part of her game. In DOA 4, it wasn't that great. It had very long recovery to it. In DOA 4.1, its recovery was improved, but it was still pretty slow. In DOA5, the recovery is pretty much at DOA2/3 levels, except now mids that slam down hit her. I would say bokuho duck is at its worst in this game simply because of that fact.
You just need to find moves that are quick and slam down to counteract her. For example. If I block Helena's 33p4p (-4 on block) and she ducks or attempts to do 6p immediately after, as a Helena player, I can do 33p4p right back, and either 33p (if she attempts 6p) or 4p (if she attempts to duck) will hit her no matter what.

If anything, her pp2k and 9p2k should be 0 or -1 on normal hit. Even I'm tired of that shit.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

If anything, her pp2k and 9p2k should be 0 or -1 on normal hit. Even I'm tired of that shit.

PP2K and 9P2K are slow as hell and have a fat delay in between the mid punch and the low kick. If you can't react to them you deserve to get put in stun. The only time they can be even remotely difficult to deal with is online and even then it takes some serious lag to make that happen.

 

[HaJiN]

Helena does have her shortcomings. On a scale of 5 I would rate her the following:

speed: 3
damage: 3
throw: 3
evasiveness: 4 (including sidestep followup options)
distance fighting: 2
safe moves: 3 (pre update that would be a solid 2)
ground game: 5
tracking: 3 (moves that have tracking)
power blow: 3
sit-down stun: 3

Explanations on each grade below:

- Helena isn't that fast, but isn't that slow.

- Her damage output is also pretty average. Pre update, I would put her damage output at a 2.

- Her throw damage isn't that great, and her bokuho throw is a big part of her game, and can be predictable at times. (She also lacks uninterruptable chain throws like Kokoro or Lisa, high damage throws like Tina or Alpha 152, or guaranteed launchers after backfacing throws like Ayane.)

- Helena's evasiveness is attributable to her amazing sidestep follow ups. One is a sit down stun, and the other is a low that has tracking. That has to be one of the best in the game. (Christie's sidestep is on a whole other level, however) Her bokuho duck is not as big of an issue compared to previous DOAs, as it gets interrupted more often than ever.

- Helena sucks at turtling, punishing whiffs, and using moves that have good range. Her longest range move is 66k. It has slow start up, doesn't stun on normal hit, and can leave her either in bokuho, backfacing (which is bad if it whiffs or is blocked) and its low punch follow up may stun, but this isn't a viable mix up option that can be used for very long.

- Helena has safe moves that follow a pattern. Any move that ends in 66p is now safe, any any move that ends in the triple slaps is safe (33p4p for example. But grapplers have a faster low throw which make the move unsafe against them.) Anomalies from this pattern and other safe moves include:
qcf p+k - this version of the triple slaps leaves her at +1 on block, but it is still a useless move.
qcf pkp
bokuho 4p+k
bokuho 6ppp
f+k (guard break)
backfacing 66k (this move is GODLY. it is a low that stuns that leaves her at 0 when blocked as long as she goes into bokuho)
1kp when charged (I believe. not sure on this one)

It seems like a long list, but mostly all of Helena's moves follow a pattern. Helena has seemingly endless strings, but for the most part, they are unsafe. Unlike virtua fighter characters, she has practically no moves that leave her at an advantage on guard. That being said, she isn't that much of an issue once she finishes a string.

- Helena's ground game is the best in the game. No argument there. Bass comes second.

- Helena lacks in the tracking department. Moves that track include:
44pp2ppk (useless move)
f+k
6pp
1ppk
bokuho 2k (and sidestep derivative)
backfacing 66k

Helena lacks any sort of mid that has tracking. 1ppk is her fastest viable option, but it is a low, and if the opponent does not sidestep and/or it hits on normal hit, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

- Helena's standing power blow lacks range. It is also a mid punch. Helena is a woman of many mid punches. Her 6p+k from bokuho is also a mid punch, so no mix up there. Its only advantage is that it is that it has a little more range. (Ayane and Alpha 152 have very good power blows in terms of mix up possibilities)

- Helena does not have many sit-down stuns. 6pp, sidestep p, backfacing 7p to name a few. The only two moves that connect if the opponent slow escapes is 33p and 3p. and 33p sucks as a launcher. Thus, sitdown stuns are not as big of a part of Helena's overall strategy in comparison to characters like Jann-Lee, Pai, Ayane, Gen Fu, and Akira.

The only thing that makes Helena amazing is her ground game. I think comparisons in terms of these categories should be done for each character, and maybe then we can come up with a rough draft tier list. On a second note, the scale I posted should be weighted. With things like ground game, sit-down stun, damage and throw being weighted more heavily by making them count double. Or if anything is graded a 4 or better, it becomes worth x + x/2, and anything graded a 3 being worth x + x/4. just throwing some ideas around.

Helena:
Unweighted grade - 3.2
Weighted using first option - 4.6
Weighted using second option - 4.175

Please feel free to add remarks or what grades you think should be changed.

 

[HaJiN]

PP2K and 9P2K are slow as hell and have a fat delay in between the mid punch and the low kick. If you can't react to them you deserve to get put in stun. The only time they can be even remotely difficult to deal with is online and even then it takes some serious lag to make that happen.

You may be right about 9p2k, but I am saying this about pp2k because Helena has pp4p. This is a good mix up that also has a small delay, and can be confusing. they should leave her at less of an advantage. Almost similar to the behavior of pp2k in DOA4, but not leaving her at as much of a disadvantage.

The reason why I think 9p2k should be toned down is not because of the move itself, but because 9p is one of her best options from her ground game, whether bokuho 6p whiffs or not. If that gets toned down, it will indirectly impact her ground game options to some degree.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

You may be right about 9p2k, but I am saying this about pp2k because Helena has pp4p. This is a good mix up that also has a small delay, and can be confusing. they should leave her at less of an advantage. Almost similar to the behavior of pp2k in DOA4, but not leaving her at as much of a disadvantage.

The reason why I think 9p2k should be toned down is not because of the move itself, but because 9p is one of her best options from her ground game, whether bokuho 6p whiffs or not. If that gets toned down, it will indirectly impact her ground game options to some degree.

PP4P has no real mix up potential. All she can do from that string is go mid or low, and the low is negative on hit giving the opponent no incentive to block anything other than high unless they are one hit from KO.

In DOA4 PP2K didn't stun on NH because she had follow ups, a low that gave a trip stun or a mid that could be charged for frame advantage. Losing both of those options was a fair trade off for gaining a new NH stun. Plus PP2K was slowed down quite severely too.

I wouldn't care too much if Helena didn't get as much frame advantage from some of her lows but saying Helena should be at negative when she hits the opponent with a low is stupid. You said she should be at -1 or 0? What's the point of her transitioning into BKO when she is at negative frames on hit? It takes her about 10 frames to cancel out of BKO to block. It's not the same as when other characters are negative on hit, they don't have to cancel out of stance before they can block again. She doesn't have the option to side step either.

About her sit down stuns:
BT 7P is +13 > No guaranteed follow up.
214P is +13 when free cancelled but has string follow ups.
SS P, 6PP and 3PPP can only guarantee launch with 33P when hit at maximum stun threshold. Otherwise she gets jack shit.

For sit down stuns she gets a 3 out of 5? That's generous.

About her safe moves remember her new safe moves as well as BKO 4P, BKO 4PKP, BT 6KP are punishable by grappler's so they are not really safe. When fighting someone like Busa she is unsafe all the time.

 

[HaJiN]

PP4P has no real mix up potential. All she can do from that string is go mid or low, and the low is negative on hit giving the opponent no incentive to block anything other than high unless they are one hit from KO.

In DOA4 PP2K didn't stun on NH because she had follow ups, a low that gave a trip stun or a mid that could be charged for frame advantage. Losing both of those options was a fair trade off for gaining a new NH stun. Plus PP2K was slowed down quite severely too.

I wouldn't care too much if Helena didn't get as much frame advantage from some of her lows but saying Helena should be at negative when she hits the opponent with a low is stupid. You said she should be at -1 or 0? What's the point of her transitioning into BKO when she is at negative frames on hit? It takes her about 10 frames to cancel out of BKO to block. It's not the same as when other characters are negative on hit, they don't have to cancel out of stance before they can block again. She doesn't have the option to side step either.

About her sit down stuns:
BT 7P is +13 > No guaranteed follow up.
214P is +13 when free cancelled but has string follow ups.
SS P, 6PP and 3PPP can only guarantee launch with 33P when hit at maximum stun threshold. Otherwise she gets jack shit.

For sit down stuns she gets a 3 out of 5? That's generous.

About her safe moves remember her new safe moves as well as BKO 4P, BKO 4PKP, BT 6KP are punishable by grappler's so they are not really safe. When fighting someone like Busa she is unsafe all the time.

Maybe 0 on hit would be best. It would be a trade off in order to keep her ground game intact. I agree that Helena is too powerful because of her ground game. This is all to balance her out and/or reduce her options after a failed/successful forced tech. I am not trying to nerf her moves for the way they are themselves. In fact, if it weren't for her ground game, Helena would deserve the pp2k stun. I thought it was a perfect trade-off when the game first came out for getting rid of her pp2kp in DOA4. It was a load of crap that it would leave her at a pretty big disadvantage on normal hit in DOA2 and 3. Either way, if it were 0 on hit, she has a 12 frame true mid from bokuho, which is fast enough to keep up the pace. Look at the bigger picture. Helena should be toned down a little because of her ground game blender. I don't think the way they went about fixing it in 1.03 was the right thing to do, however. Either they can reduce her options from the forced tech by nerfing 9p2k or make 6p not work as a forced tech.

qcb+P as a sit-down stun escaped my mind for some reason. Which is weird because I use that move all the time, except i always follow it with 4p on hit. The uppercut stun is large enough to give me enough time to turn around, go into bokuho, and do 6ppk. (provided the opponent doesn't slow escape) As for the ss p, 6pp and 3ppp, I already mentioned the 33p launcher.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Maybe 0 on hit would be best. It would be a trade off in order to keep her ground game intact. I agree that Helena is too powerful because of her ground game. This is all to balance her out and/or reduce her options after a failed/successful forced tech. I am not trying to nerf her moves for the way they are themselves. In fact, if it weren't for her ground game, Helena would deserve the pp2k stun. I thought it was a perfect trade-off when the game first came out for getting rid of her pp2kp in DOA4. It was a load of crap that it would leave her at a pretty big disadvantage on normal hit in DOA2 and 3. Either way, if it were 0 on hit, she has a 12 frame true mid from bokuho, which is fast enough to keep up the pace. Look at the bigger picture. Helena should be toned down a little because of her ground game blender. I don't think the way they went about fixing it in 1.03 was the right thing to do, however. Either they can reduce her options from the forced tech by nerfing 9p2k or make 6p not work as a forced tech.

qcb+P as a sit-down stun escaped my mind for some reason. Which is weird because I use that move all the time, except i always follow it with 4p on hit. The uppercut stun is large enough to give me enough time to turn around, go into bokuho, and do 6ppk. (provided the opponent doesn't slow escape) As for the ss p, 6pp and 3ppp, I already mentioned the 33p launcher.

So just because I don't play like the army of brain dead Mamba clones out there who couldn't string a decent combo together if their lives depended on it my options should be toned down? If the blender is too good then fix the blender, don't nerf the crap out of everything else to compensate. I don't want a character who doesn't have the tools to fight outside of blendering the opponent to death.

If 9P2K is 0 on hit she would still lose out to Jann Lee, Zack, Kasumi and Christie who have i11 mid's. Also Alpha has an i12 mid kick that cannot be ducked. She just hit you with a very slow telegraphed low attack why should she be at a disadvantage when you screwed up and fell for her mix up?

You want to make things more balanced? Increase the whiff recovery on 6P. If plus +4 is too much then increase the whiff recovery by 1,2,3 or 4 frames so she doesn't get frame advantage. That way I can continue playing my character the way I enjoy and the one thing you take so much issue with won't be a problem any more. People will stop hating on Helena for being a brain dead loop machine and all the Mamba clones will migrate to the next easy mode character.

We both win!