6++ Gameplay Overhaul

[Rob]

I'm not against jockeying for position at the beginning of a round. What I meant by that is the issue of either player encroaching to close the gap. An i9/i11 has an immediate advantage over a slower character by being in their face at the round start, for example.

And yes, where you start at the round based on the stage can put you at an inherent disadvantage or advantage. That's why it's important for a competitive game that both players start at an even position.

The stages in DOA (well at least in DOA3 where they are hugely integral to the game's design) offer a degree of strategy when it comes to positioning, which I love. But some of them are not exactly balanced for competitive play.

Yes. the triangle system is the core to DOA, but the meter system is the core of DOA6. That's why I said on the first page you were making a different game.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the core mechanics of the series. Just because that's how it's always been done, which seems to be the basis for your changes such as the removal of meter, is not a reason but rather an appeal to tradition.

The biggest problem in DOA is the defensive holds in critical status. Everyone knows this. Some DOA players will cope about DOA's stun system by saying their holds are all reads but that isn't true. If a DOA player is being honest, you can think of a ton of moments where you held out of stun completely randomly and just so happened to guess correctly. And either ended up winning or ended up getting another chance at winning or whatever. The system is frustrating at higher level play because as you go higher up, your holds are more and more random. And successful holds are incredibly valuable in DOA. Even moreso depending on the character. But yet the even bigger problem here is why should the attacker, who put the loser in stun, have to then guess to continue their offense.

Thankfully DOA5/6 toned down how much damage holds do in critical status (and the active frames), because in the older Itagaki games it would do more than the initial strike that got you stunned in the first place. It is one of the scrubbiest things I've ever seen in a fighting game.

Anyway, my point is the competitive integrity of the game is questionable at best and at worst, overrated by the fans of DOA.

 

[Rev_an]

game plays pretty fucken great without meter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it sounds like you don't like the very essence of DOA as a fighter, and that's fine, but I would suggest you go do literally anything else with your life. I don't like the direction star trek has been going since JJ abrams vomited all over the series and they hired his friends to make the new TV shows, so i spend almost zero time thinking or talking about modern shitty star trek and leave the people who like that shit alone.

 

[Rob]

DOA is a fun fighter with some depth. Feels good to play. I can just shut off my brain and enjoy it.

It's that when you try to take the game seriously and competitively, is when the disappointment and frustration kicks in.

No matter how good your stun mixup game is, you can still get fucked randomly and lose all momentum, lose a game, lose a match, etc, just because your opponent just happened to guess right. Holding in stun is such a core game mechanic that you cannot avoid in most cases, it unfortunately means that luck ends up having more of an impact than it really should. It doesn't mean the game is entirely luck based but it does mean the game is far more random than most DOA players would like to admit and therefore, less competitive.

The innate luck in DOA has a disproportionate influence on a match than say a game like Chess or GO or whatever. And in those two games it isn't the case that whoever "happens" to be playing better wins.

You always win because you are playing better.

In one game I move a piece, make a mistake, and lose or basically severely cripple my chances. In the other, I can make a mistake, guess correctly, then win lol.

What is rewarded is not skillful play necessarily nor mastery necessarily.

You literally can't blunder in Chess at higher levels of play. I can blunder a hell of a lot more in DOA and still come out on top.

DOA was made by game developers to be fun, not to be fair and balanced or the apex of big brain strategy. It was also made to have sexy females where the emphasis is on their titties jiggling.

Sadly, none of the Chess pieces or GO stones are a shrine maiden with big milkers that punches stuff. So, I'll keep playing DOA.

And thanks for the reminder, I am overdue for another rewatch of DS9.

 

[Rev_an]

Playing to Win — Sirlin.Net — Game Design

www.sirlin.net

 

[crapoZK]

I’m putting my response to this discussion in a spoiler because it’s such a huge wall of text. Nobody has to read it, but yeah:

Spoiler

I mean if it was up to me I’d reduce the active frames on holds all round to make them more read dependent and include more natural combos to DOA on NH but that’s me / currently not possible to achieve (the NCs i mean) The active frames do make room for some lucky holds to connect and it can be annoying but it’s not like it’s not been in place for over 20+ years. DOA without stuns and holds would literally be the worst shit ever. It’s a USP system wise. It might not be the most appealing but it is what it is.

I can’t lie, it’s less the stuns but the critical holds that make the game “less competitive” but not every fighting game needs to follow the rules of Tekken to be seen even though they do it “best” (VF TRULY does it best but is nowhere near as popular. Are we seeing the problem yet) and luck can be / plays a large factor in that game too. However no “pro” at DOA is losing to lucky holds alone, and knowing hit attributes of moves / strings so that you can hold is the definition of rewarding skilful play and mastery. Now don’t get me wrong, majority of people when in stun are guessing and not many people are making solid reads like that.
Either way if we look at the way of things realistically and not hypothetically, 6++ won’t be the thing that propels DOA6 into this perfectly balanced esports powerhouse and if we stopped treating it as such we’d actually have more fun about the idea. 6++ is a different game to DOA6. If we looked at it that way instead of debating whether or not it’s “better” (It is by a landslide but that’s just my opinion) then I think we would play around with what it is / could be so much more.

Fighting games are literally made to be unfair and which is why they will never be 100% balanced. The only way we can do that is to literally have 1 character in the game.

Also most of the press run for DOA6 and even DOA5 to an extent was literally about making the game a competitive esports game so let’s not falsify the intention for what DOA was supposed to be post-Itagaki.

Rob, I am kinda agreeing with you here (so please don’t come for my neck I can’t be bothered to argue online) but I don’t think stating your opinions as facts helps your argument. Where you say “you” in some places should really be replaced with “I” because “taking the game seriously is where the frustration comes in” is only the way you feel, which means you’re projecting. Don’t come for me here because you make a good point about the holds and think they need to be looked at too, but idk how people would take me asking for a 13 frame active window instead of 18. I think people like to be able to get lucky with their holds and I’ll honestly let them have it because the stun game is capricious.

Your opinion is a very valid one. A lot of people who don’t play DOA think similarly but it’s moreso that holding is difficult to understand than the luck aspect of it. I know the case study /. consensus I have is coming from a place of personal experience,
but it’s definitely the main thing I see / hear when people talk about DOA’s gameplay if they ever get there. Unfortunately there’s almost nothing rev can do about that though since that shit is hardbaked into the game’s code and he’d have to make DOA7 to change that shit. He’s working with what he can work with, and my proposals are within the limits that I know he can work in.

DOA5 and 6 wanted to be accepted by the FGC quite badly. Shit we wanted to be accepted by the FGC quite badly and we were to an extent back in 5 days but expensive DLCs and 6 literally undid all the progress TN made (gameplay wise, we know honkers and tatas are never going to be something people are going to miraculously look past in DOA) and we can’t really disprove this due to how many complaints the game received gameplay wise / how poorly it did, but i’m honestly SO TIRED of going around in circles about this debacle again so I’m cutting it there.

6++ doesn’t have to be the pinnacle of balance, but I can’t lie to you after 200+ games of this shit it’s no doubt is shitting on DOA6’s core system. You can still turn your brain off and mash with the shrine maiden in this game like you can in retail 6
(It lowkey works better because break hold is gone), it’s chill. But I do think not playing 6++ would be better for your peace of mind than arguing against it. You’re free to do what you wanna do but it’s never that serious. It’s games bruh.

It’s a WIP and I feel like 6++ is a more balanced version of DOA4, which is pretty cool.

That’s it from me though, be easy bro.

 

[raididiot]

I am committing suicide by suggesting this but I like the idea too much.

Phase 4 - 3H/61H, counters mid + low kicks by teleporting behind the foe (the 3H simply teleporting behind them, the 61H teleporting behind them in chifu, like Kasumi's teleports).

 

[crapoZK]

I think if we want Zack to fair decently in this game where everyone is a killer in their own ways, Zack needs his stun game starters back, and some stuff to make him a little scarier in the normal game.

• Bring back DOA4/5 236PPP, DOA5 236P8 (Funky Roll), 236PK.
• Give 4H+K FS properties on NH and CH and make it i26 and -13 instead of i21 and -4.
• 4K to return to DOA5 Vanilla frames (+1 without stance, +3 in Ducking) Again, if Honoka can have this, so can Zack.
• Make 6K Stun +13 on NH.
• Make 7P4 +1 on block.
• Put DOA5 8K into Ducking stance as Ducking H+K to replace Ducking S. May it FS against sidestepping opponents.
• Remove Ducking and Funky Roll after SS.
• Make Funky Roll P +2 GB on block.

Replying to this and retracting and updating what I think for Zack. Things in the quote that I no longer think are good ideas will have strikes through them. They're all quality of life / flash changes. New change list is as follows:

• Bring back DOA4/5 236PPP, DOA5 236P8 (Funky Roll), 236PK.
• Make 6K Stun +13 on NH.
• Put DOA5 8K into Ducking stance as Ducking H+K to replace Ducking S. May it FS against sidestepping opponents.
• Replace current 46K with DOA4 236K. Current one is beyond useless.
• Add DOA4 Funky Roll K. New Input: 236HH+K - Give it new oki on airborne opponents.
• Make KKK(K), PKKK(K), 2KKK(K) knockback on airborne opponents - makes it a viable combo ender / incentivises finishing the whole string and make it deal 25 damage instead of 20. This makes it do 9 damage with scaling instead of 7. Think what his PPP(K) does currently.
• Funky Roll from BT. Input: BT 6P+K

 

[crapoZK]

• Make P+KP her new bound.
• Include DOA4 PP_6KK and make it GB +3 on block.
• Make K(3K) / PK(3K) knockdown on hit with new Oki properties.
• Include DOA4 33KK (Current Hoshinpo KK) as 236KK - More details on this will come soon.
• Increase bounce launch on 66K(P) to allow for 4PKK / 236KK to connect for combo.
• Change launch properties on Hoshinpo K / 4PK / (New) 236K in stun to allow for P strings to connect.

Updated Kasumi proposals:

• PP6P6K new bound.
• Increase bounce launch on CH 9K and in stun.
• Include Hoshinpo dash after 6H+K. New Input: 6H+K6
• Make K(3K) / PK(3K) knockdown on hit with new Oki properties.
• Include DOA4 33KK (Current Hoshinpo KK) as 236KK
• Increase bounce launch on 66K(P) to allow for 4PKK / 236KK to connect for combo.

• Speed up 9P+K to i25 instead of i27.
• Give him Honoka's PPPK.
• Make PP2P_P +6 GB on block.
• Speed up P(6P) and revert it back to DOA5 properties.
• Bring back DOA5 P6PK and remove DOA6 P6PK.
• Speed up 6P(P) to DOA5 properties.
• Bring back DOA4 7PP. And remove DOA6 7P as there's no critical bursts in this game and the move is too slow. Also make this new DOA4 7P a mid.
• Replace 8PP with Leon's DOA5LR 8PPP. Make 8P bound on stun overload.
• Give him Leon's PP2K.
• Give him Leon's 46P and make it +4 GB on block. New input: 46P+K
• Give him Leon's 3PK. (This is just adding the animation onto the existing 3P)
• Give him Leon's 2H+KK. New input: 1H+KK.
• Give him Leon's PPP. New input: PP4P.
• Give him Leon's 6PPK. New input: 6PP_K.
• Make 3H+K -5 on block instead of -10. There's no need for his only engage to me throw punishable. I think it should deep stun on NH and CH instead of knockdown like Marie Rose's version of the same move so that he can get shit going.
• Increase launch height on 236P so that 9P can successfully hit, or lower the hitbox on 9P so that it can bound enemies closer to the ground.
• Make 9P3P+K (Tank Roll) 0 on block.
• Make KK Bound on airborne opponents.
• Make 3K have more advantage on CH so that it's possible for Tank Roll P to hit if the enemy doesn't hold it.

Updated Bayman proposals:

• Add 236K after PPP. Input: PPPK.
• Speed up 9P+K to i25 instead of i27.
• Make PP2P_P +6 GB on block.
• Speed up P(6P) and revert it back to DOA5 properties.
• Make 3H+K -5 on block instead of -10.
• Increase launch height on 236P so that 9P can successfully hit, or lower the hitbox on 9P so that it can bound enemies closer to the ground.
• Make 9P3P+K (Tank Roll) 0 on block.
• His throw breaks should return the game to neutral +/-0 instead of giving Bayman the disadvantage when he's the one who initiated the grab.
• Make KK Bound on airborne opponents.
• Make 3K have more advantage on CH so that it's possible for Tank Roll P to hit if the enemy doesn't hold it.

Remove the DOA6 _3P and keep the 33P blender in. Fuck it. Among some other propositions that she may or may not need:

• Remove SS Bokuho. We discussed that and we know it's scary (broken, problematic) as fuck.
• Add DOA4 8PP and make it 8PP+K.
• Make 214P Fatal Sit Down Stun on NH and CH, but remove the string opportunities and make it -13 on block.,
• Make 66P Fatal Sit Down Stun on Crouching Hit CH.
• Make 44PP(P) Bounce on the last hit.
• Increase bounce on P+KP.
• Make H+K2 +2 on block.
• Add DOA4 BT 4PPP and make it BT 4PPP+K.

Updated Helena Proposals:

• Remove the DOA6 _3P and keep the 33P blender in. Fuck it.
• Remove SS Bokuho.
• Add DOA4 8PP and make it 8PP+K.
• Make 44PP(P) bounce launch on the last hit on CH / in stun and have it juggle bound in combos.
• Add in DOA4 PP2KP. New input: PP1KP. (This blends PP and 1KP together)
• The above should automatically add PP1KK and PP1K2 (Bokuho) to the mix.
• Make BT 8P useable from regular stance. Input: 8P+K.
• Add DOA4 BT 4PPP and make it BT 4PPP+K.
• Add 2KK to BKO PP. Input: BKO PP2KK. Move OG BKO PP2K to BKO PPH+K.

• Make 66P -2 GB on block.
• Make 66P+K +3 GB on block.
• Make 6P+KP +3 GB on block.
• Make 1P+K +8 GB on block.
• Make 46P +3 GB on block.
• Make 66P bounce on CH.
• Bring 4T back to DOA6 Vanilla launch properties.

Updated Bass proposals:

• Make 66P bounce launch on CH.
• PPP new bound.
• Reduce damage on PP(P) from 32 to 22 so that it does 7DMG when scaled instead of 11DMG.

• Bring back DOA4 PPPP and make it PP4PP with -9 on block instead of -6
• Bring back DOA4 PP4PK / PP4PK and have it retain it's DOA6 44PK / 44P2K properties. This could be PP3PK / PP3P2K.
• Make 46P GB +3 on block.
• Add tracking to H+K.
• Make 66K Fatal Stun on Crouching Hit CH.

Updated Tina proposals.

• Remove SS Dragon Stance.
• Change _8P/_2P/_8K/_2K inputs to 88P/22P etc. for more consistency.
• Make 4PP_6 -2 on block instead of -7.
• Bring back DOA5 KKK and make DOA6 KKK have KK6K inputs.
• Bring back DOA4 46P and make it GB +3 on block.
• Reduce pushback on Close Hit 236P so that he can get follow ups.
• Reduce pushback on K4K on NH.

Updated Jann Lee proposals.

• Make KH+K bound on airbourne opponents however removing bounce from counter hit / stun and reverting it to NH knockdown properties on all hits.
• Make 1P(K) low launch on counter hit / in stun.
• Add in DOA4 PP2KK, giving current PP2K a PP2H+K input.
• Add in PP2KP (New string which would be a mix of PP and 1KP) with Unshu capabilities.
• Bring back DOA4 8KKP, allowing it to hit completely on airborne opponents.

Updated Lei Fang proposals.

• Add Heichu after 6KP. New input: 6KPP+K.
• Add Heichu grab after 6KP. New input: 6KPT.
• Make 4K / Heichu K -8 instead of -11 on block.
• Add new Oki to 4K.
• Add bound to 2P+K.
• Add new Oki to 6PPP.
• 1PT / 3PT - Make +13 on hit to guarantee

Updated Kokoro Proposals:

• PK4K new bound.
• Make 4K / Heichu K -8 instead of -11 on block.
• Add new Oki to 4K.
• Add new Oki to 6PPP.

 

[Project Bokuho]

Updated Kasumi proposals:

• PP6P6K new bound.
• Increase bounce launch on CH 9K and in stun.
• Include Hoshinpo dash after 6H+K. New Input: 6H+K6
• Make K(3K) / PK(3K) knockdown on hit with new Oki properties.
• Include DOA4 33KK (Current Hoshinpo KK) as 236KK
• Increase bounce launch on 66K(P) to allow for 4PKK / 236KK to connect for combo.

Updated Bayman proposals:

• Add 236K after PPP. Input: PPPK.
• Speed up 9P+K to i25 instead of i27.
• Make PP2P_P +6 GB on block.
• Speed up P(6P) and revert it back to DOA5 properties.
• Make 3H+K -5 on block instead of -10.
• Increase launch height on 236P so that 9P can successfully hit, or lower the hitbox on 9P so that it can bound enemies closer to the ground.
• Make 9P3P+K (Tank Roll) 0 on block.
• His throw breaks should return the game to neutral +/-0 instead of giving Bayman the disadvantage when he's the one who initiated the grab.
• Make KK Bound on airborne opponents.
• Make 3K have more advantage on CH so that it's possible for Tank Roll P to hit if the enemy doesn't hold it.

Updated Helena Proposals:

• Remove the DOA6 _3P and keep the 33P blender in. Fuck it.
• Remove SS Bokuho.
• Add DOA4 8PP and make it 8PP+K.
• Make 44PP(P) bounce launch on the last hit on CH / in stun and have it juggle bound in combos.
• Add in DOA4 PP2KP. New input: PP1KP. (This blends PP and 1KP together)
• The above should automatically add PP1KK and PP1K2 (Bokuho) to the mix.
• Make BT 8P useable from regular stance. Input: 8P+K.
• Add DOA4 BT 4PPP and make it BT 4PPP+K.
• Add 2KK to BKO PP. Input: BKO PP2KK. Move OG BKO PP2K to BKO PPH+K.

Updated Bass proposals:

• Make 66P bounce launch on CH.
• PPP new bound.
• Reduce damage on PP(P) from 32 to 22 so that it does 7DMG when scaled instead of 11DMG.

Updated Tina proposals.


Updated Jann Lee proposals.


Updated Lei Fang proposals.


Updated Kokoro Proposals:

• PK4K new bound.
• Make 4K / Heichu K -8 instead of -11 on block.
• Add new Oki to 4K.
• Add new Oki to 6PPP.

Interesting proposals.

 

[Rev_an]

I am committing suicide by suggesting this but I like the idea too much.

Phase 4 - 3H/61H, counters mid + low kicks by teleporting behind the foe (the 3H simply teleporting behind them, the 61H teleporting behind them in chifu, like Kasumi's teleports).

i don't actually know if she has those. she does have like 44p and 66h+k and i think hoshinpo (not chifu) etc so those are probably there but she don't need all that lmao

 

[Rev_an]

i'm trying to do a thing but the game isn't really cooperating.

Here's why the juggle scaling system probably won't change for a while. the second one also doesn't properly apply counter-hit bonus to the juggle either, but it's not shown in the video.

 

[Awesmic]

this would be worse if you couldn't move with how the stages are design. You are impeaching things that are core to the series as a whole and that makes you a clown. The triangle system is far more important to doa 6 than meter because the triangle system is core to dead or alive.

you want an entirely different game if you want the triangle system to go. everybody else still wants to play DOA, Your feedback is literally useless, you might as well be saying to make the game a first-person shooter.

I'm not defending Rob, and I respect your plight regarding this patch, but seriously... don't resort to name-calling. You're better than that.

 

[grap3fruitman]

The innate luck in DOA has a disproportionate influence on a match than say a game like Chess or GO or whatever. And in those two games it isn't the case that whoever "happens" to be playing better wins.

You literally can't blunder in Chess at higher levels of play. I can blunder a hell of a lot more in DOA and still come out on top.

Sadly, none of the Chess pieces or GO stones are a shrine maiden with big milkers that punches stuff. So, I'll keep playing DOA.

My entire takeaway from this thread is that Koei-Tecmo should make a DOA-themed GO game. 「かすみの碁」 let's go!

 

[Rob]

DOA without stuns and holds would literally be the worst shit ever.

Not necessarily.

You guys are just not used to playing DOA where the stun game isn't the cornerstone and not as heavily focused.

Someone once said DOA4 has collectively rotted the brains of DOA players, I think there's truth to that.

I can’t lie, it’s less the stuns but the critical holds that make the game “less competitive” but not every fighting game needs to follow the rules of Tekken to be seen even though they do it “best”

No, DOA doesn't need to be Tekken and can be its own thing. DOA can incorporate whatever mechanics it wants to. That's not the issue here. It's when you start to assess the game mechanics from a competitive viewpoint do the problems arise. The games just have a degree of randomness that is too high, which also hurts its skill gap.

You can cut a lot of that down by doing simple changes. You could do things like make holds in critical state do less damage, fewer active frames, expert hold inputs for normal holds, do monster damage from a hi-counter throw, add more recovery frames, add a hold lockout mechanic, etc. (I'm not saying these changes should be done, but just throwing out ideas on the top of my head). Make holds be risky and dangerous in stun. Encourage reads.

However no “pro” at DOA is losing to lucky holds alone, and knowing hit attributes of moves / strings so that you can hold is the definition of rewarding skilful play and mastery. Now don’t get me wrong, majority of people when in stun are guessing and not many people are making solid reads like that.

Well, it's not that I don't think DOA isn't skillful (in fact DOA6 is a game for intermediate players and higher), but rather my point is that luck has a disproportionate influence on the outcome of the match.

The fact that I have beaten multiple DOA "professionals" at all is insane. Or any other player around my skill level.

I mean that is the equivalent of winning against a Chess GM when I only started playing Chess a year ago lol

I don't think I have to tell you this never happens in Chess, outside of probably one incredibly rare moment or something in the game's history.

Fighting games are literally made to be unfair and which is why they will never be 100% balanced. The only way we can do that is to literally have 1 character in the game.

That's not balance, though. (And fairness, whatever that means, isn't relevant either).

Virtua Fighter has a lot of different characters and yet it is exceptionally balanced. There's a million ways you can play the game, multiple viable playstyles.

Also most of the press run for DOA6 and even DOA5 to an extent was literally about making the game a competitive esports game so let’s not falsify the intention for what DOA was supposed to be post-Itagaki.

That's just marketing though. I can market Mario Kart as a competitive racing game, doesn't make it one. And yes, some of the changes done to DOA's mechanics after DOA4 absolutely helped in making it a more competitive game.

Rob, I am kinda agreeing with you here (so please don’t come for my neck I can’t be bothered to argue online) but I don’t think stating your opinions as facts helps your argument. Where you say “you” in some places should really be replaced with “I” because “taking the game seriously is where the frustration comes in” is only the way you feel, which means you’re projecting. Don’t come for me here because you make a good point about the holds and think they need to be looked at too, but idk how people would take me asking for a 13 frame active window instead of 18. I think people like to be able to get lucky with their holds and I’ll honestly let them have it because the stun game is capricious.

Then throw the stun game in the trash can if you think it's capricious, rather than letting people get "lucky" with their holds. DOA5/6 have been band-aiding DOA4 for far too long.

Your opinion is a very valid one. A lot of people who don’t play DOA think similarly but it’s moreso that holding is difficult to understand than the luck aspect of it. I know the case study /. consensus I have is coming from a place of personal experience,
but it’s definitely the main thing I see / hear when people talk about DOA’s gameplay if they ever get there. Unfortunately there’s almost nothing rev can do about that though since that shit is hardbaked into the game’s code and he’d have to make DOA7 to change that shit. He’s working with what he can work with, and my proposals are within the limits that I know he can work in.

DOA5 and 6 wanted to be accepted by the FGC quite badly. Shit we wanted to be accepted by the FGC quite badly and we were to an extent back in 5 days but expensive DLCs and 6 literally undid all the progress TN made (gameplay wise, we know honkers and tatas are never going to be something people are going to miraculously look past in DOA) and we can’t really disprove this due to how many complaints the game received gameplay wise / how poorly it did, but i’m honestly SO TIRED of going around in circles about this debacle again so I’m cutting it there.

6++ doesn’t have to be the pinnacle of balance, but I can’t lie to you after 200+ games of this shit it’s no doubt is shitting on DOA6’s core system. You can still turn your brain off and mash with the shrine maiden in this game like you can in retail 6
(It lowkey works better because break hold is gone), it’s chill. But I do think not playing 6++ would be better for your peace of mind than arguing against it. You’re free to do what you wanna do but it’s never that serious. It’s games bruh.

It’s a WIP and I feel like 6++ is a more balanced version of DOA4, which is pretty cool. [/SPOILER]

That’s it from me though, be easy bro.

I don't expect revan to completely change the mechanics of the game (even if the topic title is "Gameplay Overhaul".) I'm just pointing out what are core problems in the series that hurts it competitively. It's tangential to what this topic is about.

And the thing is dude, why couldn't revan just have done changes that are UNIVERSALLY agreed on? Like jank like pills on jumping strikes for example, those are absolutely whack and it's great revan got rid of it.

Fix things that everyone agrees are wrong about the game and then BE DONE WITH IT.

Now it's going to be this endless “My character needs this tool”, “My character should deal with this better”, etc. Hell, xcal on FB brought up this same issue.

That's another thing, a more balanced DOA4? Why would I want that? I can easily boot up DOA4 and play that. Or DOA2U or any of the other DOA games.

 

[Rob]

Playing to Win — Sirlin.Net — Game Design

www.sirlin.net

 

[deathofaninja]

The thing is I'm willing to try any stun system DOA throws at me if it means I don't have to play Tekken. Never in the series history have I been upset about the stun system or lack thereof. Am I the only one?

 

[Twin_T]

Updated Kasumi proposals:

• Include DOA4 33KK (Current Hoshinpo KK) as 236KK

Why not make it 3_KK?

Hm... I'm a casual of DOA and I mainly been playing DOA2 as of late so I don't really have much of anything to suggest. While I do like my additions to my characters, I still like feeling like I earned my Ws while having fun. While I do want balance, I'd prefer something fun more, and right now, I can't think of anything for the characters I play; Ayane, Eliot, Phase-4, and learning Kokoro.

Well, I suppose I have two things in mind;
Phase-4:
- Her 2P+K teleport recover a little faster.
- 7K-P+K teleport activates sooner.

 

[Rev_an]

The thing is I'm willing to try any stun system DOA throws at me if it means I don't have to play Tekken. Never in the series history have I been upset about the stun system or lack thereof. Am I the only one?

some people care about the changes from doa 3 to doa 4 like that I guess. But people talking about things being "competitive" or not certainly aren't talking about that, it's a vague term that means "I don't like this" that's meant to sound like an objective evaluation.

 

[Rev_an]

Why not make it 3_KK?

we learned from helena that having 33 and 3_ inputs is kinda garbo

 

[Twin_T]

we learned from helena that having 33 and 3_ inputs is kinda garbo

Really? Is the problem getting 33 instead of 3_? That could be solved by inputting 663 for the instant crouch status if that was the case...
What makes it bad?