Are holds used by everyone who plays or only skilled players?

[human013]

From what I've seen everyone uses holds and they seem easy to do.

I come from a soulcalibur background and I'm just asking because holds seems like the guard impact in soulcalibur. This is how i think of it in soulcalibur:

Beginners usually only block (I've been playing for many years, since 3, and I consider myself in this category because I don't really care about ''guard impact'', but I'm pretty confident in my skills)
Intermediate players starts using ''guard impact''
Advance/Pros can use ''just guard'' and ''guard impact'' consistently

So I'm thinking holds fall into the intermediate category.
Is this correct?

 

[CatzDaLegit]

It's just part of the play style. If you can hold and go for dmg, there ya go. The thing is, people make calculated guesses and sometimes the opponent can catch onto your holding and start punishing you with high counter throws.

As far as skill goes, noobs spam counters and get thrown. Even semi to intermediate players spam low counters, which aids them cuz they get out of stuns and high attacks, but even they can get low thrown for big dmg.

I'd say generally speaking people learn to mid punch counter hold first as noobs and it's usually their first spamable one, and after that lows and highs. For some reason I think mid kicks are the most advanced and that they throw the most people off as "noob killers" because you have to press a totally opposite input compared to the others (even though then again people learn to mid kick counter because of the wake up game pretty early on).

I'd say at high level people play very smart. They at least know how to counter everything. Maybe they play it safe and end up block a certain attack that the opponent uses over and over, and after getting down the pattern, bam, countered. They make less misses and counter more things. Anyone can spam the holds, but the people that use holds and get the dmg without compensating themselves of over holding and putting themselves at risk of getting thrown make the better players.

I want to say as well, certain characters have more of an advantage to holding than others and that it might actually play into playstyle a bit depending on the characters moves. Tina has good counters for example, and she also as low number of attacks, so I want to say people see this thinking they can counter her being that she is more predictable with a limited move pool, but instead get super thrown which is what Tina needs to do to win games and it works to her advantage. Tina is a holds and throws type person, while someone like Helena is going to know how to use holds and throws, she has this pressure game and a bit more deception.

Let me know if you think what I said is bullshit; I'm just sorta saying things that come to mind from your question.

 

[human013]

No, what you said isn't bullshit. It helped me understand holds a bit more. They are the norm in the game (kind of like blocking is the norm in soulcalibur? because not many people guard impact out of nowhere, like in doa5 i see a lot of people going into the hold position because they think they know whats coming). Am I making sense?

 

[Brute]

Almost everyone TRIES to use holds.
Usually only skilled players do it right. If you want to see how well you've been fairing, check the game stats in the "holds" section. It will tell you how many of your holds successfully connect, breaking it down to the High/Low/MidP/MidK fragmentation as well. If you're seeing very low percentages, you may want to refrain a bit more, and rely on blocks/side-stepping.
But, well timed counters can be great for breaking predictable/abused combo chains. Just be aware that your opponent may suspect you want to counter a predictable line-up, and will deliberately free-cancel to get the "Hi Counter" throw damage on you. Additionally, certain holds can justify the "gamble," particularly advanced holds.
Lei Fang/Kasumi/etc. players tend to use holds/parries more, as they can cover multiple bases (3Free can net Mid punches and kicks, for example, making it far safer).

 

[MasterHavik]

It's used by everypony.

 

[human013]

k thanks for all the info. I got it now

 

[virtuaPAI]

The only thing that is not used often is side stepping, and thats only because the majority havent got the hang of it.

 

[Dave]

Honestly, I use holds like I should use blocking. I never, ever block. It is the biggest issue I have. I just am in this mentality that if I block one move, I'll just get thrown. Certainly not the case. So I just hold and hold. I lose a lot of life that way.

 

[Raansu]

Everyone uses holds because the game's over excessive stun system forces you to hold most of the time.

 

[MasterHavik]

Everyone uses holds because the game's over excessive stun system forces you to hold most of the time.

try to make the best guess don't mash them.

 

[Raansu]

try to make the best guess don't mash them.

Still doesn't change the fact that many situations the game forces you to hold.

 

[TakedaZX]

Anyway... so yea Viz pretty much dropped it all into perspective. Going back to the ordeal about some characters having better advantages off of holding, someone like Hitomi is a great example of this. Take it as an advantage or not, he low kick hold simply does low damage and puts you at +5 with your opponents back turned to you which is +5 on top of that making her be at +10(might be different advantage, I have touched her in awhile), so that means the next move is essentially hers.

Now say this low was -11 on block (low wake up kicks are -11 on block and don't push back), that means that you get a free low grab, preferably her Down-Foward Throw, you'll get 55 points of raw damage instead, plus the possibility of a wall splat.

These are the situations that come with holds sometimes...

(for anyone who doesn't understand the concept of frame data, for lower damage the low kick hold puts you at the advantage meaning anything they do register later than your next move if you both try to attack at the fastest point available, so no matter what Hitomi will usually win from that hold.

If she does the low block instead, she can pull her low grab on you for solid damage that can't be blocked or broken. In it's low sweeps or kicks like her own low sweep that keeps her standing, she can punish with a standing throw, like her back+throw which is unbreakable and unblockable damage.)

 

[MasterHavik]

Still doesn't change the fact that many situations the game forces you to hold.

true, but you can't be throwing caution to the air and hoping for the best.

 

[Raansu]

true, but you can't be throwing caution to the air and hoping for the best.

You don't really have a choice when the majority of the stuns in this game force you to hold.

 

[Ghosty-J]

I tend to avoid holds since I have rotten luck and guess wrong if I don't catch onto a pattern fast enough. As for every other opponent ever, everything I throw at them gets held x_x

 

[MasterHavik]

You don't really have a choice when the majority of the stuns in this game force you to hold.

you're not force. you, the player, force yourself to hold. I pick when I want to hold and it works out for me.

 

[grap3fruitman]

you're not force. you, the player, force yourself to hold. I pick when I want to hold and it works out for me.

LOL

 

[Jefffcore]

In most cases you either lose half your life from a combo, or you risk losing less than half your life from getting thrown and trying to hold.

You're forced to hold every time you get put into a stun.

 

[MasterHavik]

LOL

You'll be one of the ones I'll throwing trying to fish for holds. Funny part? I always get what I wanted when I do attempt a hold. Besides my main's holds are fucking awful. So an LOL to you sir

In most cases you either lose half your life from a combo, or you risk losing less than half your life from getting thrown and trying to hold.

You're forced to hold every time you get put into a stun.

Remember when I said I pick when I want to hold? I hold the launcher or something before. This where you need to understand the hit levels for all the characters in the game. Shit like Zack's 3p get mistaken for a high tons of times even though it hits mid.

 

[HiguraShiki]

You'll be one of the ones I'll throwing trying to fish for holds. Funny part? I always get what I wanted when I do attempt a hold. Besides my main's holds are fucking awful. So an LOL to you sir
Remember when I said I pick when I want to hold? I hold the launcher or something before. This where you need to understand the hit levels for all the characters in the game. Shit like Zack's 3p get mistaken for a high tons of times even though it hits mid.

Uhh, no dude they are right. If you get stunned, you pretty much have to guess between holding or not holding. Also, when I played my Brad vs you, you held a lot out of stun, but guessed wrong.
It isn't anything to be ashamed of really. It's just that you really can't use the slow escape. You can only slow escape a select few moves. Most of the time once you are put into stun, you are fucked. I learned the lesson the hard way by taking constant hits, thinking i was going to slow escape and block. Unfortunately all that got me was CB'd.
The only way to avoid getting stunned is really to just block a lot and not get crushed. Unfortunately that is almost impossible to do properly since you will get hit and stunned.