Character Matchup Discussion

People who main ninjas lose my respect.

You don't have to disrespect ninjas.

Just kill them.

BINGO!

Lol XD
Well if Jan Lee is any better in DOA5 I just might pick him up again. He was, and still is, my main in DOA3.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

People who think Ninjas are any easier to win with than the rest of the non ninja top tier should think before they post. (And across all DOA games, every ninja is not top tier)

busa > genfu
ayane > helena
helena > busa
genfu > ayane
hayate = busa
hayate < everyone else
kasumi > everyone else

I think I need to build a flowchart.

The only ninja I think is just way too good compared to the other characters is kasumi. Stupid bitch knocks you down once and its over.

I actually completely disagree. In DOA4 I think she was the worst Ninja. She didn't have good ways of opening you up as all her lows were slow enough to see, her whiff punishment wasn't too great, her damage is average, and everything she did was unsafe. Her punishment throw is also 10 frames which makes certain strings that are unsafe against most characters safe against her (unless next to a wall). A good defense beats Kasumi any day (offline of course, online she's very good), which makes me put her no higher than mid tier.

I also think Helena vs Ayane is even.

Nah Ryu just has every option available to him to actually work with doa4 while every other character has to manage different tricks. Ya that's totally legit and not easy. I'm not saying anyone can pick ninja's and wtfpwn people or even win for that matter, but they (especially Ryu) certainly have more tools at their disposal that makes the game much easier for them.

And to be quite honest, I share the same opinion as Uncle as I have zero respect for anyone who picks ninjas, especially Ryu. I'm all for playing to win and playing the character you can work with, but lets be honest, there is no originality with the ninjas and they are overused, not because people like them, but because they are easier to use and it simply gets old fighting the same 3 or 4 characters over and over again.

Ryu is the only top tier ninja in 4. Hayate and Ryu are both top in 3, and Ryu and maybe Ayane are top in 2. Gen Fu is easier to use and win with than any ninja in 3 and 4, so would you say you don't respect people who pick Gen Fu? Jann Lee is very good in 3 and I would argue he's comparatively easier than other characters, including ninjas, so would you say you don't respect DOA3 Jann Lee users? At a certain level any player has to be good at the game to win, regardless of their character choice. Saying "oh ninjas are easier to use and are so much better than everyone else" is a pretty blanket and ignorant statement, especially considering how pretty much every character is easy to use in DOA. If you don't like ninjas that's fine, but don't belittle other players who do use them just because you find fighting the same characters "boring". Usually when a player finds themselves losing to a certain character they tend to blame the character, when they should be looking at inner weaknesses as the problem.

Who said I was losing? Clearly you missed my entire point and clearly you are a mindless Ryu player, so with that I'm done with this convo as I'm trying to avoid these pointless spats of ignorance from other players.

Yes I'm a mindless Ryu player.

And I never said YOU were losing. You'd need people to play against to lose. I was making a general statement. And don't act like you've never lost to a ninja and simply blamed it on that.

Nope, they don't look gay.

Personally, I don't care what character my opponent's using... I underestimate no one. Everyone is my toughest opponent.

And that's all I gotta say about that.

Explain.

Helena is not better than Busa, she can give him a run for his money, a very good run, but she is not better. Those Izuna holds put him at the top of the doa food chain, easy, along with his other nonsense. Your flowchart may be off a bit, if you are going to go with what you have (if you are talking about doa4), Rikuto. Everyone else is not better than Hayate, that character can be ridiculous if played right. Not to many characters can give him a problem that he doesn't have an answer for.

Mr. Mustard, you're right about Kasumi to a certain point. Strong defenses shuts her down completely this very true, and other characters that are unsafe become highly safe when they are put in front of her. But when she is applied right, poking-wise and she finds that chink in the armor (which everyone has) online or off. She can be very over welhming, of course I am assuming that someone who can play very well uses her. Oh yeah, her whiff punisher 6k is crazy if it is not being baited for a hold. 6P can be done as well, but 6K is way better. Her damage (in DOA4) is up there, she is hands down among the top 5 or 6 characters for damage output.

Losing "respect" for players because of character choice, lol. Them being over used you can't really do too much about that, but losing "respect" for players because of it, I can't buy that. Me personally, I don't play with Kasumi because she is easy to use, I genuinely like and enjoy the character with the utmost "originality".

How is busa gonna get in on helena?

Only reason his speed seems dominant is because of the messed up crush properties on some of his moves. Ryu got good crushes, safety and good counters and thats what gives him the edge, but he just gets outcrushed by everything she does.

On the other hand, nothing he does hampers her crushes, and her completely fucked up oki game also doesn't allow ryu to do anything with his counters. He can still win, as anyone can, but it sure as hell doesn't put things in his favor.

So there you go.

Kasumi I firmly believe we never saw a player really maximize her potential. Reason I say she was OP is because to date, I have gotten more retard losses against that character versus players who don't even know what the hell they are doing than any other character. Funny enough, looking back at tournaments I know other players like Black Mamba have as well.

Reason is, like I said, the dumb bitch only needs to knock you down once to put you in a stupid guessing game loop between 6k and her 10 frame throw. Both can take out anywhere between a third to half of your life depending on enviroment, and both put you right back in the damn loop unless you guess out of it correctly.

She gets back into that stupid loop from all kinds of dumb shit too. throws, counter-hits, low/mid kick counters, whatever. She has too many opportunities to guess her way to victory with far less input than any other character. And I don't subscribe to the "well just block and she wont knock you down" train of thought. DOA has delays which mean you are always under threat of a throw which will put you in the same exact situation. Blocking against kasumi does jack shit. You either interrupt successfully or you die. Or you interrupt successfully, get countered by mid/low kick counter and die anyway. Having safe moves and punishment is not the guaranteed recipe for victory in DOA 4. That's just some on-paper BS.

oh, I heard she's fast too.

Saying I don't respect ninja users may have been a bit harsh as their are a few people who use them that I have a lot of respect for. My point was more of a broad term of my opinion towards the average who pick them for all the wrong reasons.

Mustard, my comments was really only referring to DoA4 and how Ryu works within that system.

Ryu has plenty of things to get in on her with; 66k (at a distance), teleports, 8K, the list goes on. Yes, she does have her moves to keep those off, but his are better. It's the other way around, how can she get in on him? When Ryu is on the screen all of the characters have to play against him the same, approach with extreme caution. Helena is great and top tier and all, don't get me wrong on that, but compared to him she is not better. She has the oki game with the stance throw and her lower duck, which are both OD along with her other things. Ryu's options compared to her's are far greater, he has so many.

I agree with you on Kasumi. Correction, she is the fastest.

Glad someone fucking sees it. Yea, the last kasumi comment was half-sarcasm.

Also remember, nobody was really using "get in" by the end of the competitive game. People were all playing canadian by the end CGS season 2. When your success is measured by rounds and not matches you don't fuck around. So busa could run in with a 66k, but it'd just get blocked since all they were doing is circling while backing up for 99% of the match. Once you force the match at close range the advantage immediately goes to helena. Imagine the stress of dealing with her crushes as busa, while being at a disadvantage, while possibly getting thrown and put into the oki loop, or whatever.

Are you going to even have the balls to try and throw anything out when you know there is an overwhelming chance of it being blocked? It's seriously a staring match.

The difference is that if Busa does manage to knock her down, helena isn't gonna get looped over and over again. You can see where this just becomes a fucked up situation.