DOA 5 Musings: How To Bring Back Individuality and How Bending the Triangle Can Be a Good Thing
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x Sypher x
Active Member
x Sypher x
Active Member
I'd like to raise a question or two. This may be a bit off topic but here it goes. Nothing wrong with a little food for thought right?
So I've recently been playing DOA4 online and I've been messing around with Kasumi for a while. I noticed that her teleport parry isn't always very useful, there have been some instances where I pull one off but I don't get a successful hit or throw. Either they turn around and block my punch just in time to punish with a throw, or they interrupt my attempted throw. This pisses me off and I sometimes call BS, like "WTF I should have gotten that!", lol.
So here's what I'm thinking: How can we properly balance her teleport parry (TP)? Would it be a good idea to make damage guaranteed after a successful parry? Like say maybe speeding up the dash a bit to ensure a hit or throw, that would make her a bit more powerful right? And it would probably shorten the window for the next input (
, , or ) in which the player would have to rely on quick reflexes. I personally think her TP can contribute to her "individuality", so how can it be tweaked in favor of that? Also, should her low TP (from DOA2 & 3) be brought back in addition to her high and mid TP's? I'd like to see that. Please share your thoughts on this
So I've recently been playing DOA4 online and I've been messing around with Kasumi for a while. I noticed that her teleport parry isn't always very useful, there have been some instances where I pull one off but I don't get a successful hit or throw. Either they turn around and block my punch just in time to punish with a throw, or they interrupt my attempted throw. This pisses me off and I sometimes call BS, like "WTF I should have gotten that!", lol.
So here's what I'm thinking: How can we properly balance her teleport parry (TP)? Would it be a good idea to make damage guaranteed after a successful parry? Like say maybe speeding up the dash a bit to ensure a hit or throw, that would make her a bit more powerful right? And it would probably shorten the window for the next input (
, , or ) in which the player would have to rely on quick reflexes. I personally think her TP can contribute to her "individuality", so how can it be tweaked in favor of that? Also, should her low TP (from DOA2 & 3) be brought back in addition to her high and mid TP's? I'd like to see that. Please share your thoughts on this 
Black Dragon
Active Member
That's strictly a DOA4 system problem, not her teleport parry.
Under previous conditions (e.g. DOA2 or 3), at worst she'd get a guaranteed hit.
Under previous conditions (e.g. DOA2 or 3), at worst she'd get a guaranteed hit.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
You said there was sidestepping and whiff punishing in the match. I saw very little sidestepping and minimal whiff punishment. The video was also posted to back up your previous post (which I also had trouble following due to the terminology), and I wasn't really following what the video backed up.
So here's what I'm thinking: How can we properly balance her teleport parry (TP)? Would it be a good idea to make damage guaranteed after a successful parry? Like say maybe speeding up the dash a bit to ensure a hit or throw, that would make her a bit more powerful right? And it would probably shorten the window for the next input (
Why do you need something guaranteed off of the parry? The parry is relatively easy to use, so why should you be rewarded with guaranteed damage?
My suggestion would be to make the parry result in a sidestep. Kasumi teleports to the side (similar to a successful sidestep in other 3D fighters), then she is free to do whatever she wants. What is guaranteed would be determined by the attack that is parried. If it's a jab, with quick recovery, Kasumi gets nothing aside from possible frame advantage. However, if it's an attack with longer recovery (say a launcher), then she gets a guaranteed throw, or a quick attack... or maybe even a launcher.
x Sypher x
Active Member
We're talking about DOA here, where an easy to pull of counter does a guaranteed 50 points or more of damage.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
We're talking about how to improve DOA so that hopefully it becomes a viable tournament game. Removing guaranteed damage from relatively easy counters/parries is a great starting point.
I'm just saying that's the kind of logic we're dealing with here though. Follow me?
To be honest, giving her something guaranteed off of a teleport parry isn't something I'd be against. Just like other characters in 3.1 have guaranteed options against back-turned opponents.
Like Lei Fang's mid-kick hold for example. She suffers the same problem as Kasumi in DOA4, as nothing is guaranteed off of that now since turning around from a back-turned stance has been sped up.
To be honest, giving her something guaranteed off of a teleport parry isn't something I'd be against. Just like other characters in 3.1 have guaranteed options against back-turned opponents.
Like Lei Fang's mid-kick hold for example. She suffers the same problem as Kasumi in DOA4, as nothing is guaranteed off of that now since turning around from a back-turned stance has been sped up.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
I'm also fine with a guaranteed opportunity, but I don't think it needs to be double direction, the reward just needs to be commensurate with the risk.
As a parry is low risk, the window for reward should be low also, but there should definitely be a reward for a correct read. Enough to have frame advantage, say enough to land a jab. What happens in the rest of the string falls under the usual system or mindgame/setup between the players.
Its worth remembering a restriction on parries which is they cannot be done out of stun, which means the opportunity to exploit them is lower, another reason the reward needs to be there. "Guaranteed damage" I don't fully agree with as that implies you're going to get a good hit in every time. In DOA4 Kasumi can do that if she parries an attack with long recovery or the attacker continues the next part of the string. What's annoying is she gets a good throw mixup if the attacker was smart enough to stop and block.
Lei Fang, Bayman, and Gen Fu, have "better" parries as that creates a clear "advantage" mixup situation. I'd like the parries to work like those, but of course, with enough advantage that LF, B or GF could land one hit without fear of that first strike being held. After that, fair game.
Addressing the overall topic - I thought the article was really good and I particularly agree with Jared's later comments regarding stepping; I know that Jared is a good VF player too so he understands how a refined and subtle sidestep evade can add to the game, in lieu of a counter against linear attacks.
I don't think sidesteps need step a whole string; it should re-track after a window of time, the stepping player does not deserve to have all day to hit the other guy back.
On character individuality, I think its important to separate the idea of what the positives are of a universal system from the perceived negatives of character same-ness. DOA's highly universal system is one of the best things it has going for it, and I think character individuality needs to come from the movesets.
Grape gives a great example, with Lei Fang's mid kick hold. This can be seen as an example of the system's universality working against the character (quicker turnaround times), whereas I see it as a failure to tweak the specific moveset of the character, not that the universal systems in the game are necessarily bad. (Of course the two should both be tweaked against the other, EG if you speed up turnaround, increase stun on a turnaround hold as described below, or make turning around slower and then retweak the relevant moves as needed)
If TN had simply tweaked that specific move to provide more advantage (program the opponent to be unable to turn around as fast when affected by the counter) this would be a stronger tool for Lei Fang.
They improved on this in DOAD. Once again the Hold she uses to activate the situation is part of a universal toolset, but the effect for HER is unique. The discussion on Helena's stance shows us something similar.
That's where I think the two mesh well. It's the same in other games with their universal systems, DOA just needs its individual character movesets to have clearer advantages and disadvantages within the system. The universality of its systems themselves, in theory is not an issue.
Improving on the systems to allow more options is obviously ALSO a good thing, but does not necessarily hurt or hinder character uniqueness; its about what they do with it character to character.
As a parry is low risk, the window for reward should be low also, but there should definitely be a reward for a correct read. Enough to have frame advantage, say enough to land a jab. What happens in the rest of the string falls under the usual system or mindgame/setup between the players.
Its worth remembering a restriction on parries which is they cannot be done out of stun, which means the opportunity to exploit them is lower, another reason the reward needs to be there. "Guaranteed damage" I don't fully agree with as that implies you're going to get a good hit in every time. In DOA4 Kasumi can do that if she parries an attack with long recovery or the attacker continues the next part of the string. What's annoying is she gets a good throw mixup if the attacker was smart enough to stop and block.
Lei Fang, Bayman, and Gen Fu, have "better" parries as that creates a clear "advantage" mixup situation. I'd like the parries to work like those, but of course, with enough advantage that LF, B or GF could land one hit without fear of that first strike being held. After that, fair game.
Addressing the overall topic - I thought the article was really good and I particularly agree with Jared's later comments regarding stepping; I know that Jared is a good VF player too so he understands how a refined and subtle sidestep evade can add to the game, in lieu of a counter against linear attacks.
I don't think sidesteps need step a whole string; it should re-track after a window of time, the stepping player does not deserve to have all day to hit the other guy back.
On character individuality, I think its important to separate the idea of what the positives are of a universal system from the perceived negatives of character same-ness. DOA's highly universal system is one of the best things it has going for it, and I think character individuality needs to come from the movesets.
Grape gives a great example, with Lei Fang's mid kick hold. This can be seen as an example of the system's universality working against the character (quicker turnaround times), whereas I see it as a failure to tweak the specific moveset of the character, not that the universal systems in the game are necessarily bad. (Of course the two should both be tweaked against the other, EG if you speed up turnaround, increase stun on a turnaround hold as described below, or make turning around slower and then retweak the relevant moves as needed)
If TN had simply tweaked that specific move to provide more advantage (program the opponent to be unable to turn around as fast when affected by the counter) this would be a stronger tool for Lei Fang.
They improved on this in DOAD. Once again the Hold she uses to activate the situation is part of a universal toolset, but the effect for HER is unique. The discussion on Helena's stance shows us something similar.
That's where I think the two mesh well. It's the same in other games with their universal systems, DOA just needs its individual character movesets to have clearer advantages and disadvantages within the system. The universality of its systems themselves, in theory is not an issue.
Improving on the systems to allow more options is obviously ALSO a good thing, but does not necessarily hurt or hinder character uniqueness; its about what they do with it character to character.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Kasumi's parry teleports her behind the opponent. If she is to get anything guaranteed out of it then the parry needs to be double input like her old parries were, simple as that. None of this
crap like in doa4.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
I'd personally like to see more environment based moves. for example Tina's back f+k against the wall allows her to bounce off the wall and onto the opponent. If timed correctly it beats a ton of wake up options. It's definitely more useful than her regular back f+K. I'd personally love to see more attacks like that. Stuff that rewards the player for knowing their environment, it sets DOA apart from the rest.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
Nice thread Jared, I really hope somebody important takes note of this... its good stuff
Im in agreement of SS needing to be traced. The game is way too string based to allow for something like that. If the strings themselves were changed somehow... maybe, but this will probably just lead to a whole new bunch of crap. SS should be a tool used mainly for getting around stuff that you dont want/need to hold, this would most likely be Crush moves if im reading this right. Recovery for these moves is also going to be a bitch now cuz lets say Ayane does her 8K (from facing forward) and you SS it early enough to be behind her when she lands (not sure if possible but I remember the move having a particularly long somersault animation before it connects). So now you have a free shot at her back, netting you anywhere from 30-50 % damage, maybe even more if you're smart. That move cant be Held, making it extremely useful assuming frame advantage in DOA5. If SS goes overboard stuff like this loses viability. I understand that this particular move is really only useful in a select few situations, but I think it illustrates the point well enough. What would be useful is a linear Side-Dash that continues on into a circling step if held. Who knows, we could maybe even use the SD to setup certain other moves (Bayman's side-roll into Leg Lock comes to mind). If its just a step, then thats all it will ever be.
On BKO and viability of moves from within it, less is more IMO. This holds true for every character actually, there are just way too many moves that get nerfed (I guess unintentionally) by the system itself, and others that give the character abilities that they dont really deserve to have. Assuming Frame advantage, some of these excess moves can be redeemed, but quite a few of them are useless/excessive nontheless. Take kasumi's teleport which is also a topic I enjoy reading about. Whether she gets guaranteed damage or not, I dont think she ever deserved a launcher out of it. The Grab and Elbow attack suffices IMO. My way of thinking is that setting up for heavy, guaranteed damage should take more than just a Hold. This means the same thing goes for Hitomi's and (regretably)Ayane's Mid Kick Holds. These moves dont really need to dissapear, their effectiveness just needs to be offset with difficulty. If the implement the Hi Counter = Hold | Counter = Parry system I heard talk of some time ago, that would work as well.
As a final note, I have not been of FSD, or heard any news on DOA since November so I AM outdated to an extent. If my post reflects this... A thousand apologies I beg of you. Also KOF13 is the best in the series so far, even if its not the favourite.
PPS - Rikuto is looking a lot more pissy these days lmao. Whats up guy? Didn't enjoy the holidays, or enjoyed them too much and dont feel like getting back to work?
Im in agreement of SS needing to be traced. The game is way too string based to allow for something like that. If the strings themselves were changed somehow... maybe, but this will probably just lead to a whole new bunch of crap. SS should be a tool used mainly for getting around stuff that you dont want/need to hold, this would most likely be Crush moves if im reading this right. Recovery for these moves is also going to be a bitch now cuz lets say Ayane does her 8K (from facing forward) and you SS it early enough to be behind her when she lands (not sure if possible but I remember the move having a particularly long somersault animation before it connects). So now you have a free shot at her back, netting you anywhere from 30-50 % damage, maybe even more if you're smart. That move cant be Held, making it extremely useful assuming frame advantage in DOA5. If SS goes overboard stuff like this loses viability. I understand that this particular move is really only useful in a select few situations, but I think it illustrates the point well enough. What would be useful is a linear Side-Dash that continues on into a circling step if held. Who knows, we could maybe even use the SD to setup certain other moves (Bayman's side-roll into Leg Lock comes to mind). If its just a step, then thats all it will ever be.
On BKO and viability of moves from within it, less is more IMO. This holds true for every character actually, there are just way too many moves that get nerfed (I guess unintentionally) by the system itself, and others that give the character abilities that they dont really deserve to have. Assuming Frame advantage, some of these excess moves can be redeemed, but quite a few of them are useless/excessive nontheless. Take kasumi's teleport which is also a topic I enjoy reading about. Whether she gets guaranteed damage or not, I dont think she ever deserved a launcher out of it. The Grab and Elbow attack suffices IMO. My way of thinking is that setting up for heavy, guaranteed damage should take more than just a Hold. This means the same thing goes for Hitomi's and (regretably)Ayane's Mid Kick Holds. These moves dont really need to dissapear, their effectiveness just needs to be offset with difficulty. If the implement the Hi Counter = Hold | Counter = Parry system I heard talk of some time ago, that would work as well.
As a final note, I have not been of FSD, or heard any news on DOA since November so I AM outdated to an extent. If my post reflects this... A thousand apologies I beg of you. Also KOF13 is the best in the series so far, even if its not the favourite.
PPS - Rikuto is looking a lot more pissy these days lmao. Whats up guy? Didn't enjoy the holidays, or enjoyed them too much and dont feel like getting back to work?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Kasumi's parry teleports her behind the opponent. If she is to get anything guaranteed out of it then the parry needs to be double input like her old parries were, simple as that. None of this
If it's going to give her guaranteed backturned shit, it needs to be something other than a parry. That's way too good for a system that is supposedly trying to nerf the damage output on 3 point counters.