Tina has a hit throw from a 14 frame non-stance move and one from an 18 frame kick. Not seeing how this is absurd.
An 18i [LOW] kick? Also it's more so about what makes Hayabusa need this over his regular Ongyoin throw? Give him the proper advantage and the proper tools to demand respect and +6 will be more than sufficient.
For being stuck in the hell that is ongyoin where all your options are hella slow AND risky?
Granted I think +10 is a little much and would be happy with +6, but it's not crazy, really. Not when you consider your 12/15/5000 hit speeds from the stance at neutral.
At +6, Ongyoin is demanding the respect it needs too (ESPECIALLY with the addition of an Ongyoin 4P or/and 4K/4H+K/H+K, (both of which would stun and be relatively quick).
44P is already quick at about 15i? So you have now an 9i tracking MID if this is implemented for Ongyoin. Who's beating a 9i tracking MID? THIS makes +4 reasonable, but frankly I don't think anyone actually likes 44P. Still... this is one option. The other is 236K from DOA4.
In DOA4, 236K clocks in at 17i. At +6? This move is not being beaten. Period, and it could also have the instant or quick crush low property to at least win out at +1.
Since it would stun in this scenario, Ong H+K4, could put him back in. Hoping that it's a deep enough stun, we could also hope that he could launch with Ong K from it or at least extend stun game from it. See what I mean? It has a purpose then.
Assuming 4H+K's combo we talked about as well, I think my 66K launch idea is a bit overkill now at this point. Yea the damage would be humane compared to the Shoho but it'd still make him a little TOO solid (CB!, 66K, Ong K, 6K, Air Throw/JF WR 4KK, a combo that would make @
DestructionBomb pick up Ryu for sure c; ). Frankly, I don't want to make 4H+K obsolete as a launcher though, as it would only become useful on heavies probably, (if at all).
4P2P was +16 on NH in DOA4.
Not sure about 1K, but it's more deserving than 4P2P.
So again, not really material that should put you into disbelief.
That's kinda the point Brute. Ryu was STUPID in DOA4 for these unseeable NH lows (among other things).
Too many things stunned in DOA4 and too many things had large stuns in DOA4. 4P2P makes sense at -3 or -4 but not neutral or +. I'd even go as far as -2. It's because 4P6P stuns honestly. If it didn't well then there'd really be no purpose to it and I'd say 4P2P neutral/hard frame advantage (no stun) should be a-go. That's not the case.
4PK backs both of those options as well at +3 and I could stand to see some push back off of 4PP or a guard break with pushback for neutral... or just the push back.
Good call. +7 was a bit much, but anything below +2 nsn't respected at all by the speedsters. Personally, I'd say +4, but I could live with +3.
I'd only say +4 for 9i jabbers but lbr, he does have checks and balances to them from even +2 already. 33P/3P+K completely check them. 2H+K (assuming it doesn't mid crush) Checks them as well for frame advantage). 6P is a 10i mid at that point. 2P is an 11i low. 8P is an 11i high punch launcher. Top it off with respect of the standing AND crouching izuna then you've got a pretty good weapon.
I'll tolerate +4 if 3H+K, 41236T doesn't work without a quick half dash in (excluding the wall). Of course you can duck it but.
No, it's not. Translate patchlist is very vague, and alludes to a "hurtbox" alteration. But Momiji's says the same thing. That could mean a variety of things. It doesn't confirm any mid crush properties. That is just speculation.
Fair point. I thought someone said they DID find out in the LokeTest. Perhaps they did and you haven't heard it yet but I don't have the proof. Assuming it is that change, we both did agree this would change Ryu's lack of a good low. I also think that 33P2K is a little underestimated under the right conditions but I can show you why the next time we play. It's got its faults but there is a use for it on pressure. We'll talk. You free around 3 PM Pacific today?
Before you said advantage off of 1K NH was one of the things you "couldn't believe you were reading."
Anyway...
I won't lie. I did say that. Difference is, this is coming out of the stance. Regardless I was tired and apologize for leaving that. I just wanted to get to sleep. Scrap the frame advantage, leave the low. No one likes the current 2K anyway.
Those cams can be disorienting. I personally like the flat cam.
I don't think it's as serious as you make it. Once you see them, it's clear that you made the cut (the guess). But we can agree to disagree. To me it's more (fighting c; ) entertainment.
Yea useless is a stretch but as it is now, it's just all kinds of clunky. Even if it were put as 236H+K, it'd have limited application in juggles. Anything you can do with it, you're probably better off using a different move for. Hell even a wall carry can be done better with WR KP, and WR KP will still pull out more damage if it doesn't catch the wall.
I don't think this move should've appeared in his arsenal at all. I could see Hayate getting something similar like Ayane's PKK/BT H+KK but that's only because he's known for constantly stealing his sister's moves (smh). It be like that sometimes (when you're in the same clan, which Ryu is not).
So the list in general is:
- KK/33PK - 0 on block again
- 66K -
Launch at max threshold (4K height) and also +6 on block
- 6P+K4 and PP6P4/Ong 6P4/33P4 - +0/+1 on block
- DOA4 3KK - Give back this move and change the animation for 33KK. Safety of (-6) on block.
- This isn't a factor of balance as much as a factor of appearances. This move should be considered to return, even if only the animation of 3KK is changed).
- 3H+K/4PK/PP4PK - +3 on block (Drop 1st Kick)
- 2H+KKP/2H+KKK - Return of his old DOA4 strings with an adjustment to the NH stagger so that the WR K actually lands. 2 in 1 on CH+ and also if possible without ruining the string, making 2H+KK launch high enough for an air throw.
- Ongyoin 2K - Change to 1K animation and allow it to loop back into itself
- Sensible trade off for Ong 2K
- Ongyoin 4K/H+K - DOA4 236K, Deep gut stun.
- 46H - Give camera angles of Ongyoin T
- WR H+K - change to 236H+K.
- Scrap 33K/Running 2K/Ongyoin 2K - This move has outlived its life. It wasn't great in the past and it's not good now.
Takeda WR H + K is of his useful moves ever. You need to know how you use it.
Master vs Master was scripted. On top of that, Master only uses WR H+K for styling. It has [limited] application as I just said. It's not solid get in and it's not solid damage.
