System DOA5U learning roadmap + links to guides & videos?

[Tulkas]

Please take the idea about the issue we are facing by reading next quote, specially what I underlined:

The "Hey, yo, help me learn this character" is probably the most common question around and probably needs the most addressing, really. Most of the information on a character is out there (not all), but it's also incredibly disorganized and on different levels. A single character shouldn't be a research project. Me, personally, I'll probably work on this as i get better myself. Though, me saying this is beating on a dead horse. I won't be happy until someone can start playing DoA 1 week, and the next week be casual level competent with at least half the roster. I doubt i could ever get Team Ninja's help, but they would be able to help more than anyone.

The original thread is: Learning from the Japanese Players

This post will likely be updated with future introduction and/or summary.

 

[Tulkas]

Right now, the only thing which comes to my mind is reorganize contents according to doa5u learning path, perhaps as a roadmap-like TOC... Could be through post y/o wiki... I dunno...

 

[StrikerSashi]

I still stand by what I said a few months ago, which is that a Wiki is best. Something like this or this. Ideas would be compiled from threads and knowledgeable players of each character would update the wiki page.

A big issue still is that DOA players seem to not like IRC or chatrooms. In my opinion, that's honestly the biggest thing for a group to improve. Instant answers to quick questions.

EDIT: What IRC allows is for players who have questions to just put them out there and have multiple answers. That allows for discussion and that allows for growth. No discussion leads to a stale game with unevolved tech.

Plus, I doubt most people check every single character forum. Even if they know tech and they don't mind giving it out, they won't do it unless they know people are asking for it. That's how a lot of people are. That's what IRC solves. People can then take what they hear from discussions and post stuff they think are important in the character forums, character specialists can test them, then it's posted on the wiki so it's easily accessible.

 

[Kohlrak]

Kudos to you, Tulkas, to be the first one to take it out of the context that this kind of stuff has been in and giving it it's own topic that it deserves.

I still stand by what I said a few months ago, which is that a Wiki is best. Something like this or this. Ideas would be compiled from threads and knowledgeable players of each character would update the wiki page.

A big issue still is that DOA players seem to not like IRC or chatrooms. In my opinion, that's honestly the biggest thing for a group to improve. Instant answers to quick questions.

I agree with both statements. I like Nina's page a little more since it has much more detail. The thing it lacks the most, though, is a link to the "properties" key.

I, however, still feel that we need to take a character and show the whole game through this lens. It's hard for people to look and try the in game concepts unless they can do it first hand. Moreover, the in game tutorial is making me rage quit at some points, and i don't rage quit often. I wonder what Team Ninja would do if i were to go through that tutorial as if i'm new to DoA and tell them everything that is going on in my mind when things don't go as planned. I already know it would be a HUGE markup (all too often am i given an aggressive opponent without any good clue of what i'm supposed to do [it had the right intentions, but it feels really, really rushed]). If we could get this info out first, we could then do videos to teach the game that are very much connected to this information so people can pick it up an go with it, which is what we so desperately need right now (no one would have any excuses at that point to say they can't figure out the game: certain techiques, yes, but we could really put a dent in the questions).

The problem: getting all that info, frame data, properties, etc, is impractical when they insist on updating the game all the time.

On the flip side, people are already doing it. We just need to migrate it, get it all into a common language, then explain it. Actually, the hardest part would probably be getting all this information where it needs to be. A tutorial explaining how to play using the data would be NOTHING for someone who has the setup. I would work closely with whomever willing to do it. I know how to cover at least the first 4 SHORT videos, but i need the data and the person who has a recording setup.

EDIT: It's perfectly possible to throw a computer opponent on easiest difficulty and win with just pokes.

EDIT2: If you can get a page like this on Kasumi done, and teach me how to read it, i might be able to do the videos myself (or at least get something started so someone with more editing experience can take over once they see where this is going).

 

[Psylence]

I still stand by what I said a few months ago, which is that a Wiki is best. Something like this or this. Ideas would be compiled from threads and knowledgeable players of each character would update the wiki page.

A big issue still is that DOA players seem to not like IRC or chatrooms. In my opinion, that's honestly the biggest thing for a group to improve. Instant answers to quick questions.

EDIT: What IRC allows is for players who have questions to just put them out there and have multiple answers. That allows for discussion and that allows for growth. No discussion leads to a stale game with unevolved tech.

Plus, I doubt most people check every single character forum. Even if they know tech and they don't mind giving it out, they won't do it unless they know people are asking for it. That's how a lot of people are. That's what IRC solves. People can then take what they hear from discussions and post stuff they think are important in the character forums, character specialists can test them, then it's posted on the wiki so it's easily accessible.

Hoooooly shit... the Tekken Nina wiki page gets a shoutout from the DoA community! I'm actually kinda impressed that people know of that page... it doesn't seem to be very well put out there (despite all my efforts at putting it out).

But I am glad that you guys think that its mostly good...

I do like how the wiki's can lead to a centralized place for information, but I've found that people tend to ignore them and go straight for the forums instead... then have to be pointed to the wiki when they ask a question that's been answered there. It gets annoying at times... but at least you have an easy answer - check the wiki...

But, as someone that's put a decent amount of effort into compiling a lot of data, it does take a significant amount of work... and that significant amount of work generally falls on one or two people that are willing to put forth the effort...

In reality I put together the Nina wiki page mostly for myself... to help organize my thoughts and knowledge... and so that I could just post a link when someone asked a question about something that was answered...

As for making video tutorials, it is never 'nothing' to create one. Especially if you want a quality one... first off you have to compile what you want to cover and boil it down so that the information is succinct, yet accurate. If you ramble, then people won't watch it. Secondly after you record, you have to edit, post and then promote it. Editing is another time consuming process that can easily take 2-4 times longer then recording itself.

All in all sometimes its hard to keep delivering, compiling and disseminating the information if the response from the community isn't continually positive.

I've thought about working on the Sarah wiki page like how I did for the Nina page, but I don't know the game that well (really been only playing for a couple of weeks... since Ultimate came out)

 

[Kohlrak]

Hoooooly shit... the Tekken Nina wiki page gets a shoutout from the DoA community! I'm actually kinda impressed that people know of that page... it doesn't seem to be very well put out there (despite all my efforts at putting it out).

But I am glad that you guys think that its mostly good...

I do like how the wiki's can lead to a centralized place for information, but I've found that people tend to ignore them and go straight for the forums instead... then have to be pointed to the wiki when they ask a question that's been answered there. It gets annoying at times... but at least you have an easy answer - check the wiki...

But, as someone that's put a decent amount of effort into compiling a lot of data, it does take a significant amount of work... and that significant amount of work generally falls on one or two people that are willing to put forth the effort...

In reality I put together the Nina wiki page mostly for myself... to help organize my thoughts and knowledge... and so that I could just post a link when someone asked a question about something that was answered...

As for making video tutorials, it is never 'nothing' to create one. Especially if you want a quality one... first off you have to compile what you want to cover and boil it down so that the information is succinct, yet accurate. If you ramble, then people won't watch it. Secondly after you record, you have to edit, post and then promote it. Editing is another time consuming process that can easily take 2-4 times longer then recording itself.

All in all sometimes its hard to keep delivering, compiling and disseminating the information if the response from the community isn't continually positive.

I've thought about working on the Sarah wiki page like how I did for the Nina page, but I don't know the game that well (really been only playing for a couple of weeks... since Ultimate came out)

That is the problem here, though, the community response is terrible. "Oh, you don't need that, you have it in the game, and I don't really use it anyway." I beg to differ, but i'm not the community.

 

[Psylence]

That is the problem here, though, the community response is terrible. "Oh, you don't need that, you have it in the game, and I don't really use it anyway." I beg to differ, but i'm not the community.

I'm thinking that kind of response might be coming from some of the more veteran players that had to learn it all the hard way... and so for them what was there was all that's necessary.

In attempting to learn this game, I found that there's very little information out there, which is discouraging. Especially the lack of frame data... a few characters on the wiki have the data... but most don't seem to (I didn't look at them all... just a few of the characters I was interested in).

Yes the frame data is in the game... but to get a complete picture with frames on hit, counter, critical stun, whether or not they slow escape, etc takes a long time to find out for even just one move in training...

Emprorcow does a good job with the videos... but I haven't seem many other good DoA vids... There was one recently that went up on the main page that attempted to cover Phase 4... but I couldn't get through it... it was way too rambling... I think the whole thing was like 2 hours long... the in the first 30 minutes the only things I really got out of it was - Phase 4 is unsafe and she has a higher execution barrier then a lot of people were saying...

 

[Kohlrak]

I'm thinking that kind of response might be coming from some of the more veteran players that had to learn it all the hard way... and so for them what was there was all that's necessary.

I like you already.

In attempting to learn this game, I found that there's very little information out there, which is discouraging. Especially the lack of frame data... a few characters on the wiki have the data... but most don't seem to (I didn't look at them all... just a few of the characters I was interested in).

That, and the ones that do have data have data that's been changed and out-dated by patches. Moreover, some stuff is missing from the in game data as well. Personally, that's why i'm bothering with Marie Rose right now, because her and Phase 4 have officially released PDF files of Frame Data that's up to date.

Yes the frame data is in the game... but to get a complete picture with frames on hit, counter, critical stun, whether or not they slow escape, etc takes a long time to find out for even just one move in training...

I agree fully. Seeing it exclusively in the game prevents you from doing side-by-side comparisons as well. I've formulated some interesting formats in my head on how to organize the frame data even better than on that webpage to allow the most comparisons, but before I even bother there has to not only be an interest but some research must be done as well.

Emprorcow does a good job with the videos... but I haven't seem many other good DoA vids... There was one recently that went up on the main page that attempted to cover Phase 4... but I couldn't get through it... it was way too rambling... I think the whole thing was like 2 hours long... the in the first 30 minutes the only things I really got out of it was - Phase 4 is unsafe and she has a higher execution barrier then a lot of people were saying...

I've actually heard some criticism of emperorcow's vids, and i've been one of them. They're great, but it seems more to me that it's all better suited to people who already know fighters or at least know dead or alive. I'm trying different approaches right now to learning the game, but i'm running into certain walls that keep me from even playing. From the sounds of things, you know tekken, so if you have this game and are willing to put some time into it, perhaps we could be of some use to each other. I'm not very good with analyzing motions and such to know what kind of stuns are what, what kinds of combos can come from what, but hta'ts probably due to my focus on trying to get decent at the game my eyes are prioritizing other things.

If you're anxious to get started with something, drop be a line on skype, the name's "kohlrak." If we can find a good way to teach the game that works better than what's going on right now (which shouldn't be hard, IMO), it would be immensely helpful to not only dead or alive, but other fighting games that're suffering from the same issues. For over a year i've been analyzing the issue that's leading to certain people magically being good and others not, and it's really coming down to, as you said, lack of appropriate materials. I think this is an issue with tekken as well, so if you want someone to work on the problem with, i'm you're guy. I must warn you though, one of the main reasons i'm interested in this is because i've been a scrub for over a year now.

 

[Psylence]

Phase 4 and Marie have pdf's with frame data? I didn't see anything obvious in their forums or wikis... I wonder why there's not a link to them there...

I can see the criticism over EmperorCow's videos you mentioned being relevant... I am fairly well versed in fighting game stuff since I've been playing them ever since Street Fighter 2 in the arcades...

One of my problems with teaching is that I found by far the biggest barrier to people learning the game (in my case Tekken) is a willingness to put the effort into learning. I've told plenty of people, hard tried and true methods for practicing techniques (like punishment) and very rarely do people work on it.

For a lot of people they play the game because its that... a game... something fun, a diversion. Once you have to 'work' at it, its no longer a game, but a chore.

I really don't have much interest right now in trying to force another community into getting better... I'm having a hard enough time with the one I've got... and I'm still trying to figure out how to get them to improve... but the ones that improve the fastest, are the ones that put the effort into researching and practicing the fundamental skills.

I'm picked up DoA actually as a method for improving my skill of reading and misdirecting the opponent... its one of my weakest skills... Tekken doesn't have anything built into the system that encourages that... generally the tricky characters that rely on misdirection are high risk, low reward. But with DoA, the Hold system is very much geared toward honing those skills.

But there definitely are people that put time and effort into improving their core skills, but just don't seem to get better... and from my observations the big things that separate those out from the ones that tend to win more is reactions and 'solidness'... not overextending your offense and having a strong defense... I'm not sure how to really teach those aspects.

 

[Kohlrak]

Phase 4 and Marie have pdf's with frame data? I didn't see anything obvious in their forums or wikis... I wonder why there's not a link to them there...

On the japanese site for the arcade edition. Nyotengu is also there.

I can see the criticism over EmperorCow's videos you mentioned being relevant... I am fairly well versed in fighting game stuff since I've been playing them ever since Street Fighter 2 in the arcades...

My particular criticism is "information overload." Most people are not willing to invest 2 hours in one of many methods to improve themselves at a game they are otherwise mashing. This is not a programming course, there's no reason to spend over an hour on a game that takes only that long just to beat the single player on, if that. The in game tutorial is guilty and this kind of stuff, too. You need stages.

One of my problems with teaching is that I found by far the biggest barrier to people learning the game (in my case Tekken) is a willingness to put the effort into learning. I've told plenty of people, hard tried and true methods for practicing techniques (like punishment) and very rarely do people work on it.

Well, as i said above, order matters. Get them to a point where they aren't mashing, but are still capable of winning against some computer opponents without mashing. Then give them things that will dramatically get better. But even then there's an order.

For a lot of people they play the game because its that... a game... something fun, a diversion. Once you have to 'work' at it, its no longer a game, but a chore.

Indeed. And i'm finding that the people who are better did so without entering the chore stage. They learned a way in that they're not actually teaching.

I really don't have much interest right now in trying to force another community into getting better... I'm having a hard enough time with the one I've got... and I'm still trying to figure out how to get them to improve... but the ones that improve the fastest, are the ones that put the effort into researching and practicing the fundamental skills.

I'm finding that even fundamentals are even hard at this point. I've tried my hand at tekken, but moved onto DoA for the realism and easier control scheme. I would say that i'm willing to try impoving via that front, but i've invested alot in DoA and like it better regardless. However, i'm thinking that both communities are having the same problems, so really either of us working on one game will solve the problem for the other.

I'm picked up DoA actually as a method for improving my skill of reading and misdirecting the opponent... its one of my weakest skills... Tekken doesn't have anything built into the system that encourages that... generally the tricky characters that rely on misdirection are high risk, low reward. But with DoA, the Hold system is very much geared toward honing those skills.

I noticed. I have alot of trouble with tekken, as it seems it's mearly a match of trying to get that initial stun in, then beat them to death, while you have to work harder than that in DoA. That's also one of those things that makes DoA so realistic, if you know what he's going to do, you're going to counter it.

But there definitely are people that put time and effort into improving their core skills, but just don't seem to get better... and from my observations the big things that separate those out from the ones that tend to win more is reactions and 'solidness'... not overextending your offense and having a strong defense... I'm not sure how to really teach those aspects.

Mindframe is useful. Having opportunities to grow helps as well. It's mostly looking like it's online vs offline in this community, and i want to work to change that around, but i'm running into difficulties.

 

[Psylence]

On the japanese site for the arcade edition. Nyotengu is also there.

So why hasn't there been a link to any of them posted in the forums or wiki pages? Making useful information easily accessible would go a long way toward improving the information easily accessible. I know that's an obvious statement... but for a specific example, why haven't you posted it? You know of the existence, a newer player (me) was told the information 'was out there', I looked in the places I thought it would most likely be and it wasn't there.

Even a quick Google search for: 'doa5u japanese site arcade edition' yields nothing. Those pdf's won't be accessible for the majority of people unless they have a link.

My particular criticism is "information overload." Most people are not willing to invest 2 hours in one of many methods to improve themselves at a game they are otherwise mashing. This is not a programming course, there's no reason to spend over an hour on a game that takes only that long just to beat the single player on, if that. The in game tutorial is guilty and this kind of stuff, too. You need stages.

DoA5 Vanilla did missions during the story mode. In my opinion they didn't give you enough time to practice the skills during each mission, but it was there. I'm not sure why they took that out in DoA5U.

But either way that type of training can only be provided by the developers as an official update... which isn't likely to happen.

Well, as i said above, order matters. Get them to a point where they aren't mashing, but are still capable of winning against some computer opponents without mashing. Then give them things that will dramatically get better. But even then there's an order.

So, since I'm new to this game, and I can only really speculate and go off my specific experiences, what are these specific skills you're referring to? And what order should they be learned in?

Indeed. And i'm finding that the people who are better did so without entering the chore stage. They learned a way in that they're not actually teaching.

I can tell you that there are some aspects of the game that are most effectively practiced by grinding (ie going into practice mode and grinding it out). The only other way of doing it is possibly losing some matches that you might have otherwise won because you were practicing new skills.

I'm finding that even fundamentals are even hard at this point. I've tried my hand at tekken, but moved onto DoA for the realism and easier control scheme. I would say that i'm willing to try impoving via that front, but i've invested alot in DoA and like it better regardless. However, i'm thinking that both communities are having the same problems, so really either of us working on one game will solve the problem for the other.

So why are you having a hard time with fundamentals?

I also find it funny that 'realism' was one of your reasons for choosing DoA over Tekken... like 'realism' comes into play when comparing two fighters that have teleports, fireballs, lasers, survivable explosions, people jumping 3-5 times their height, etc... If you're looking for realism in a fighter you really should check out Karate Champ... I think that was the last realistic fighter...

But I will agree with you that DoA has a waaaaay simpler control scheme... a lot less buttons to worry about, plus no where near as much technical information or execution needed.

I noticed. I have alot of trouble with tekken, as it seems it's mearly a match of trying to get that initial stun in, then beat them to death, while you have to work harder than that in DoA. That's also one of those things that makes DoA so realistic, if you know what he's going to do, you're going to counter it.

Tekken is a super complicated game... its no wonder you have difficulty with it. But I can tell you that its nowhere near just trying to get the initial stun and beating them to death. But we're not here to talk about which is better, Tekken or DoA. That argument can go on forever.

Mindframe is useful. Having opportunities to grow helps as well. It's mostly looking like it's online vs offline in this community, and i want to work to change that around, but i'm running into difficulties.

In my offline community there are no DoA players. I tried to get interest a while ago, but nothing came up. I've only got online right now.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Thing is, while there always are people who'll just go to forums, there will be a lot of people who will check wiki and would be nervous about asking in a forum.

EDIT: Oh, and I have P4's movelist PDF linked in her thread.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I've only got online right now.

My heart goes out to you.

Also, about 50% of Nyotengu's frame data is on the wiki

 

[Psylence]

Thing is, while there always are people who'll just go to forums, there will be a lot of people who will check wiki and would be nervous about asking in a forum.

EDIT: Oh, and I have P4's movelist PDF linked in her thread.

So, I did finally find the P4 PDF... after I was told it was 'in the thread'. Without a thread specified I kinda had to guess which one it would be... and even then it wasn't obvious, since it was 7 posts down.

If I'm looking for information I don't particularly want to dig through 5 threads each with 10+ pages of comments (most of which aren't useful).

Why hasn't someone linked that pdf in the wiki? Or put a thread titled 'P4 frame data pdf' and sticked it in the forum?

If you did both then it would be super easy to find...

My heart goes out to you.

Also, about 50% of Nyotengu's frame data is on the wiki

I'm not too concerned about the no offline players here... I'm not terribly invested in DoA and really only picked it up to practice a few skills that are easier to work on in DoA...

That's awesome that's getting out there (especially since we don't have her yet) and that hopefully it'll all be there by the time she's released.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Nah, it's in the general discussion thread in the first post, right below the video.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'm not too concerned about the no offline players here... I'm not terribly invested in DoA and really only picked it up to practice a few skills that are easier to work on in DoA...

Too bad, I know a few players on FB in Kent, WA (around 30 min from you) who have been wanting to do an offline gathering in their area.

 

[Psylence]

Too bad, I know a few players on FB in Kent, WA (around 30 min from you) who have been wanting to do an offline gathering in their area.

Well they don't post in the Seattle Match making thread... so it doesn't sound like they're interested in offline play either.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I don't believe they have FSD accounts, which is why they don't post in there.

 

[Kohlrak]

So why hasn't there been a link to any of them posted in the forums or wiki pages? Making useful information easily accessible would go a long way toward improving the information easily accessible. I know that's an obvious statement... but for a specific example, why haven't you posted it? You know of the existence, a newer player (me) was told the information 'was out there', I looked in the places I thought it would most likely be and it wasn't there.

Indeed, in that regard i'm guilty.

Even a quick Google search for: 'doa5u japanese site arcade edition' yields nothing. Those pdf's won't be accessible for the majority of people unless they have a link.

You can get there from wikipedia, but that's no excuse.

DoA5 Vanilla did missions during the story mode. In my opinion they didn't give you enough time to practice the skills during each mission, but it was there. I'm not sure why they took that out in DoA5U.

Replaced it with an actual tutorial mode which pretty much did the same things in the same order.

But either way that type of training can only be provided by the developers as an official update... which isn't likely to happen.
So, since I'm new to this game, and I can only really speculate and go off my specific experiences, what are these specific skills you're referring to? And what order should they be learned in?

Right now i'm failing on the Korean Backdash, but other skills that are hard to acquire, or do proficiently, include sidestepping, blocking, counter poking, etc.

I can tell you that there are some aspects of the game that are most effectively practiced by grinding (ie going into practice mode and grinding it out). The only other way of doing it is possibly losing some matches that you might have otherwise won because you were practicing new skills.

Pretty much anything works like that, but practice isn't the same as learning.

So why are you having a hard time with fundamentals?
I also find it funny that 'realism' was one of your reasons for choosing DoA over Tekken... like 'realism' comes into play when comparing two fighters that have teleports, fireballs, lasers, survivable explosions, people jumping 3-5 times their height, etc... If you're looking for realism in a fighter you really should check out Karate Champ... I think that was the last realistic fighter...

Clichés like fireballs, laser eyes, and 20 foot flights aside, most of the movesets for the "nomral characters" (i include zack in this) are indeed real, and moves flow together just like the real moves do. Moreover, holds, something you mentiond above, are a concept that is very commonly taught in real arts, but are under-emphasized in other fighting games. Throws are also much more expansive, just like in real life. I noticed with Tekken that the boxing character (Steve IIRC) doesn't even go into standard boxing combinations (1, 2, 3; 1, 2, 4; 1, 3; 2, 3, 2; 2, 4, 2; etc).

But I will agree with you that DoA has a waaaaay simpler control scheme... a lot less buttons to worry about, plus no where near as much technical information or execution needed.
Tekken is a super complicated game... its no wonder you have difficulty with it. But I can tell you that its nowhere near just trying to get the initial stun and beating them to death. But we're not here to talk about which is better, Tekken or DoA. That argument can go on forever.
In my offline community there are no DoA players. I tried to get interest a while ago, but nothing came up. I've only got online right now.

Sounds like my boat, except the closest i had to an offline scene was when i was 10 and i convinced my cousins to play Mortal Kombat. I guess every so often you can convince a bunch of guys to play smash bros to mash with, but that's about as close as I ever get. Though, i'm a firm believer that team Ninja and other companies worked hard to make online more playable in their games than people make it out to be. However, it presents new problems to be learned to dealt with, hence the fact that people generally just bash the experience entirely. If i was better to begin with, i'd take the time to figure it out, but i still lack profficiency with a few basic skills.

So, I did finally find the P4 PDF... after I was told it was 'in the thread'. Without a thread specified I kinda had to guess which one it would be... and even then it wasn't obvious, since it was 7 posts down.
If I'm looking for information I don't particularly want to dig through 5 threads each with 10+ pages of comments (most of which aren't useful).
Why hasn't someone linked that pdf in the wiki? Or put a thread titled 'P4 frame data pdf' and sticked it in the forum?
If you did both then it would be super easy to find...
I'm not too concerned about the no offline players here... I'm not terribly invested in DoA and really only picked it up to practice a few skills that are easier to work on in DoA...
That's awesome that's getting out there (especially since we don't have her yet) and that hopefully it'll all be there by the time she's released.

I think it goes back to the fact that frame data isn't well received here, in general.

 

[Psylence]

I don't believe they have FSD accounts, which is why they don't post in there.

Well if they don't have FSD accounts, how do they meet up with amd/or discuss the game other players? Its not like there are a lot of other DoA communities out there.

Indeed, in that regard i'm guilty.

Well there's an easy enough way to un-gultify yourself from that...

You can get there from wikipedia, but that's no excuse.

Wikipedia is not known for being a good resource to get detailed information about fighting game mechanics... release dates, character info and storyline yes... but not much else... People won't click through to wikipedia to find frame data.

Replaced it with an actual tutorial mode which pretty much did the same things in the same order.

It does a pretty good job of introducing people to the basics... at least what the options are... it does a terrible job at allowing people to really practice the skills.

Right now i'm failing on the Korean Backdash, but other skills that are hard to acquire, or do proficiently, include sidestepping, blocking, counter poking, etc.

I'm not finding KBD terribly useful in DoA... I had a really easy time getting it since its a simplified version of Tekken KBD... but all in all, since movement is unsafe and causes counterhits on you, unless you're already spaced out (range 4+ depending on the opponent) extra spacing is super risky.

Sidestepping is almost worthless... The only real use I've found for it is to step running and/or diving attacks. Since each hit in a string track, and most people attack with at least 2 hits to a string, you're going to get hit... I'd say that sidestepping is a tool useful only in very specific situations (unless you're playing Christie, in which case her stance sidestep is super useful)

Blocking... is just remembering to hit 5H... and to not move or attack too much... just remember that most people can't start too much of an offence if you just stand there and block...

Counter poking... find your fastest mid... block an attack then use it... its amazing how many people will just run into Sarah's 6P. (But that might just be a Sarah thing... with her i11 mid counter hit stun)

Pretty much anything works like that, but practice isn't the same as learning.

Practice is learning to apply the learning. I know a few Tekken players that have a ton of knowledge, but don't know how to apply it well.

I think it goes back to the fact that frame data isn't well received here, in general.

It would be better received if it was expected for players to know it.