News Emperor Cow Meets Tomonobu Itagaki!

[just_me]

Lets all ignore the other DOA games he made and assume the man is incapable from learning from his mistakes.

Well that only works if he thinks he made mistakes and I'm pretty sure he does not...

Also I feel that he made that stuff with the 4 pillars up just recently. Last time he talked about pillars there were only 3 (DoA,DoAX and NG as the pillars of DoA)

But for funnsies, let's look at them
Casual pillar:
Don't see why this game is harder to pick up than previous games the core move set of most characters didn't change much and 95% of DoA5s mechanics were in previous iterations. This time around the game at least tries to teach it's system to newcomers... and no one complained that story mode on "Normal" is too hard, while that was a fairly common complaint about DoA4 and that is something that really turns "Casuals" away, since no one likes to play on "Easy" (and still get his/her ass kicked)
Finally since most previews of LR still describe the game as "mashy", it seems that the casual audience does not notice they have a harder time to pick up the game

Pro pillar:
Well if he put any effort on that pillar with DoA4, he failed pretty hard in most peoples eyes. Having NG as a hardcore action game does not help anyone here either.

Violence pillar:
Erm... the series only has the minimum amount of violence for a fighting game, doesn't it? The original NG was not particularly violent either... only NG2 turned the series into a gore fest.

Sexy pillar:
I'm pretty sure we only have the current DLC "issues" because of DoAX. If the intention was to separate the erotic stuff from the Fighting Game, he did a pretty poor job. Shouldn't have called it DoA and should not have used the same cast of characters (I mean the girls are the only reason why you would call this game DoA to begin with). All it did was to show people how far TN is willing to go with the girls...
And there is also 2U... had a gravure mode as well (only images, but still the same purpose: look at the girls) and already featured a good amount of the fetish outfits we have in DoA5...

 

[xRELICXx]

Cow: You know, you just said something that has hit the spot to hard its actually painful. I love the DOA Fighting game series. I have always been a fan and to me it was always the game that played better and also looked sexier than all its competition. But that’s just it! It was always a fighting game first, and the sexiness came naturally thanks to how visually pleasing the game was “as a fighting game”. The problem that I, as well as many players out there, have been having with DOA5 is that it lost its identity as a fighter. It started off so well at first with the “I’m a Fighter” slogan and the trailers showing really entertaining fighting. Then it is like they took a huge 180 degree turn and started to exploit the sexy side of the game to the point that it became erotic. The game lost its identity as a fighter and became an online erotic clothes shop. Even when they released some of the classical nostalgia outfits as DLC they went and exposed more under boob or side boob just in order to make them sell more. What they don’t realize is that this is hurting us as a “fighting game community” and we are being looked down upon by all the players of other fighters out there as perverts who just play an erotic game. No matter how hard we as pro players try to showcase the games depth by releasing video content or attending tournaments, they go and flood the market with more bikinis and more cleavage. They have them practically topless in the DOA5 Last Round pre-order for crying out loud. We are being taken as fools.

I agree with you 100% on that Cow!

 

[Kasumi]

The franchise is doing pretty damn good for itself for this iteration compared to any of the previous DOAs. The game's in one of the best positions that it's ever been. But of course, there's always room for growth and improvement.

Let's see....

-DOA5 Vanilla sold less than DOA3 or DOA4.... in Japan. (epic fail specially if you think about 3 & 4 being released on a niche console vs PS3).
-Releases post DOA5 Vanilla sold like crap.
-The franchise image on the media and average gamer is laughable.
-Very few people takes the game seriously when it comes to tournaments and competitive play.

Plus many other issues.

Sorry but I don't share your view about "doing pretty damn good ".

 

[LordBrightman]

I enjoyed reading this interview. Itagaki-san seems to be a cool guy both on and off cam. Straightforward and funny guy. Thanks for sharing this @EMPEROR_COW I do really hope you did some sightseeing when you went there.
( ´͈ ᗨ `͈ )◞

 

[Rikuto]

Let's see....

-DOA5 Vanilla sold less than DOA3 or DOA4.... in Japan. (epic fail specially if you think about 3 & 4 being released on a niche console vs PS3).
-Releases post DOA5 Vanilla sold like crap.
-The franchise image on the media and average gamer is laughable.
-Very few people takes the game seriously when it comes to tournaments and competitive play.

Plus many other issues.

Sorry but I don't share your view about "doing pretty damn good ".

Actually there's a lot misleading about what you just said...

-- Vanilla indeed sold less, but given the fact that DOA 3 and DOA 4 had much more development time and resources put into it (a number of years in the case of 3, and 4 is a strange tale as 2U content was originally meant for 4) you have to measure the return in accordance to the resources put into it. Furthermore, placing DOA 3 on a "niche console" actually gave it a sales boost. You see, when your platform of choice has a limited game selection to choose from, people inevitably choose your game even if it doesn't happen to interest them. Because they have no other choices. It is without a doubt a lot of why it did so incredibly well.

-- Releases post vanilla don't sell as many pre-orders, but its roughly 1/4th to 1/3rd depending on the platform, and thats before digital sales for the game itself or individual characters on core fighters. Considering that these updates do not even qualify as a years worth of development time, you could justifiably stack all of those sales on top of what vanilla made for the total profit margin of what is to be expected for the time-in and product-out.

-- Depends who you ask. If you ask a journalist, somebody will tell them decade-old hearsay about the game before they play it because most gaming journalists don't know what the hell they are doing at any given time of the day. If you ask an average gamer he probably hasn't even heard of the franchise. DOA is a lot more under-the-radar than you think. If you ask someone from another part of the FGC, then they might consider it a joke... depending on their geographic location and how saturated their local scene is with greasy jaded neckbeards at serious risk for a heart malfunction who love to talk trash but haven't been able to place in a tournament for any game in the last eight years.

-- Funny, Mr. Wizard said the same thing. We just had a nice big thread about how that was bullshit and even pulled up numbers from several different tournaments showing that DOA has been hanging with the other fighters rather consistently, if not taking the lead in registrants in certain locations for 3D.

 

[TRI Mike]

I respect the man for having created the previous DOA games and Ninja Gaiden 1 but I seriously think it's time for him to shut the fuck up about DOA forever. At this point, all I can see is a butthurt dev mad at TN for being successful with DOA5. I'm not fond of the sexualization as Cow said in the interview but I also think DOA5 is a huge improvement over DOA4, which if I'm not mistaken, is the perfect fighting game according to Tom.

He just needs to work a lot on that Devil's Third game because to be honest, it looks really bland and uninteresting to me.

 

[Skilletor]

-- Funny, Mr. Wizard said the same thing. We just had a nice big thread about how that was bullshit and even pulled up numbers from several different tournaments showing that DOA has been hanging with the other fighters rather consistently, if not taking the lead in registrants in certain locations for 3D.

Can you link me to that thread?

 

[Rikuto]

Primary discussion took place in the Competitive Dead or Alive facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/100422933441847/446746125476191/

Numbers from one of my posts were pulled to the end of a similar thread on FSD here.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/evo-2015-lineup.5200/page-5#post-237739

 

[Kohlrak]

I don't think it's that different, and I also don't think people mashing even know what threshold means. They're not worried about max damage and critical bursts. They're doing pppppp and pkpkpk and ppppk.
And I'm talking as far back as DoA2, since most of the basic moves from the cast haven't changed that much. DoA4 is the outlier as far as stun reliance goes, and again, I doubt a person mashing has even noticed that much.

So, yeah, I don't buy it.

Nothing teaches you like necessity does. You go in mashing and beat computer. Computer gets smarter on higher difficulty and makes you mash more intelligently. Eventually, you're going to have a "style" determined by how you deal with certain situations in the game. As time goes on, you're going to play against humans, who have their own styles. Now you have to improve your game even more, so you figure out how to get every last bit of damage on your opponent, because he's beyond hard mode.

The franchise is doing pretty damn good for itself for this iteration compared to any of the previous DOAs. The game's in one of the best positions that it's ever been. But of course, there's always room for growth and improvement.

And there is *ALOT*. The game is pretty advanced at this point, and not much more complication you can add (aside from actual fighting from the ground, with knee kicks, choke-holds, etc).

For growth, first and foremost is better education. If you can't pick up the game in a hurry, the customer will go for a simpler game (Would you rather play Mario Kart or Gran Turismo?). There are customer complaints about netcode. There are customer complaints about blandness (costumes). There are people who are pushed away by the extreme sexuality. We have customer complaints about useless gimmicks (power launchers). We have customer complaints about need of more varied characters (where they've shown is entirely possible). We have customer complaints about stage blandness.

I think we know where we can grow the game more. As much as i'd like to see one new feature, it'd be nice if it was cleaned up a little first. Clean your room before you get new toys (though new characters and stages could easily go into category 1, their counterparts would still be in category 2 and it'd still dwarf category 1).

EDIT: This is what happened to mortal kombat before it needed a reboot. They kept adding useless methods of fatalities instead of cleaning up the game.

 

[Skilletor]

Nothing teaches you like necessity does. You go in mashing and beat computer. Computer gets smarter on higher difficulty and makes you mash more intelligently. Eventually, you're going to have a "style" determined by how you deal with certain situations in the game. As time goes on, you're going to play against humans, who have their own styles. Now you have to improve your game even more, so you figure out how to get every last bit of damage on your opponent, because he's beyond hard mode.



And there is *ALOT*. The game is pretty advanced at this point, and not much more complication you can add (aside from actual fighting from the ground, with knee kicks, choke-holds, etc).

We're obviously talking about two different types of gamers. People that mash, in my experience, never try to learn, adapt, or get better. When they reach a wall that mashing can't break down, they move on to another game.

Primary discussion took place in the Competitive Dead or Alive facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/100422933441847/446746125476191/

Numbers from one of my posts were pulled to the end of a similar thread on FSD here.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/evo-2015-lineup.5200/page-5#post-237739

Thanks.

 

[Kohlrak]

Well that only works if he thinks he made mistakes and I'm pretty sure he does not...

Also I feel that he made that stuff with the 4 pillars up just recently. Last time he talked about pillars there were only 3 (DoA,DoAX and NG as the pillars of DoA)

But for funnsies, let's look at them
Casual pillar:
Don't see why this game is harder to pick up than previous games the core move set of most characters didn't change much and 95% of DoA5s mechanics were in previous iterations. This time around the game at least tries to teach it's system to newcomers... and no one complained that story mode on "Normal" is too hard, while that was a fairly common complaint about DoA4 and that is something that really turns "Casuals" away, since no one likes to play on "Easy" (and still get his/her ass kicked)

I feel like people don't read previous posts before posting..... Move attributes have changed, alot. It's harder to just pick up and accept how move turn out and memorize the outcomes and conditions. There are more conditions and fewer outcomes, and it's harder to pick up on.

Finally since most previews of LR still describe the game as "mashy", it seems that the casual audience does not notice they have a harder time to pick up the game

Those same reviewers are the people who say it's not a fighting game, no? Let's not cherry pick our information if we're going to consider it gospel.

Pro pillar:
Well if he put any effort on that pillar with DoA4, he failed pretty hard in most peoples eyes. Having NG as a hardcore action game does not help anyone here either.

I agree.

Violence pillar:
Erm... the series only has the minimum amount of violence for a fighting game, doesn't it? The original NG was not particularly violent either... only NG2 turned the series into a gore fest.

Yeah, it's not mortal kombat, which is doing much better right now.

Sexy pillar:
I'm pretty sure we only have the current DLC "issues" because of DoAX. If the intention was to separate the erotic stuff from the Fighting Game, he did a pretty poor job. Shouldn't have called it DoA and should not have used the same cast of characters (I mean the girls are the only reason why you would call this game DoA to begin with). All it did was to show people how far TN is willing to go with the girls...
And there is also 2U... had a gravure mode as well (only images, but still the same purpose: look at the girls) and already featured a good amount of the fetish outfits we have in DoA5...

I think the thing that Itagaki doesn't understand is that we're not all massive perverts. The average gamer wants sexy, not cleavage. And by "sexy," they mean the game generally looks better with more pretty graphics. Conveniently, DoA5 has been getting closer to this pillar with both interpretations. And this is where he fails to understand why we're so upset. He's thinking it's all about the boob exposure, when really we're just sick of exposure. Americans pay attention in sex ed, europeans pick up their football magazines. Anyone want to take a guess why? TN and Itagaki both need to learn why.

We're obviously talking about two different types of gamers. People that mash, in my experience, never try to learn, adapt, or get better. When they reach a wall that mashing can't break down, they move on to another game.

Only if you've never played a fighter before. If you're determined to continue to enjoy this game, you'll learn how to beat it, especially if you have people near you that are succeeding. Why throw 50 dollars down the drain just because the game beat you? Instead, you learn how to mash better, then you stop mashing altogether and do intelligent movesets. Fighting games punish you too much to magically stop mashing in the beginning stages.

 

[Kasumi]

Actually there's a lot misleading about what you just said...

-- Vanilla indeed sold less, but given the fact that DOA 3 and DOA 4 had much more development time and resources put into it (a number of years in the case of 3, and 4 is a strange tale as 2U content was originally meant for 4) you have to measure the return in accordance to the resources put into it. Furthermore, placing DOA 3 on a "niche console" actually gave it a sales boost. You see, when your platform of choice has a limited game selection to choose from, people inevitably choose your game even if it doesn't happen to interest them. Because they have no other choices. It is without a doubt a lot of why it did so incredibly well.

-- Releases post vanilla don't sell as many pre-orders, but its roughly 1/4th to 1/3rd depending on the platform, and thats before digital sales for the game itself or individual characters on core fighters. Considering that these updates do not even qualify as a years worth of development time, you could justifiably stack all of those sales on top of what vanilla made for the total profit margin of what is to be expected for the time-in and product-out.
.

You are missing the point, if DOA6 sales 10.000 copies and they told you, it was profitable!, as a fan, as someone that wants DOA to be more popular and to have more players, are you going to be happy?.

My comment about sales was never about profit, it was about reaching more people, and DOA5 failed in my opinion.

 

[Rodnutz]

Great interview. I really enjoyed reading it so thanks for sharing.

 

[Rikuto]

You are missing the point, if DOA6 sales 10.000 copies and they told you, it was profitable!, as a fan, as someone that wants DOA to be more popular and to have more players, are you going to be happy?.

My comment about sales was never about profit, it was about reaching more people, and DOA5 failed in my opinion.

Firstly, I wouldn't have to worry about that kind of numbering, because the numbers for DOA 5 are far better than that.


Secondly, I view a verbal conflict such as this one as something that can be ultimately won or lost, because every major factor from resources, distribution, genre audience size, launch exclusivity, free to play models, tutorials, online activity and tournament attendance can all be appropriately and factually measured.

But when you just go off there and start using the word "opinion" its a cop out, in a way. It basically means you're covering yourself in grammar armor so its impossible to lose. I hate that immensely, so you and I really can't have a conversation.

 

[Skilletor]

Only if you've never played a fighter before. If you're determined to continue to enjoy this game, you'll learn how to beat it, especially if you have people near you that are succeeding. Why throw 50 dollars down the drain just because the game beat you? Instead, you learn how to mash better, then you stop mashing altogether and do intelligent movesets. Fighting games punish you too much to magically stop mashing in the beginning stages.

Yeah, definitely talking about different types of players. /shrug

 

[Argentus]

Firstly, I wouldn't have to worry about that kind of numbering, because the numbers for DOA 5 are far better than that.


Secondly, I view a verbal conflict such as this one as something that can be ultimately won or lost, because every major factor from resources, distribution, genre audience size, launch exclusivity, free to play models, tutorials, online activity and tournament attendance can all be appropriately and factually measured.

But when you just go off there and start using the word "opinion" its a cop out, in a way. It basically means you're covering yourself in grammar armor so its impossible to lose. I hate that immensely, so you and I really can't have a conversation.

I dunno. I think its smart just cover against the people who try to dismiss any topic of discussion by pulling the "opinion not fact" bs.

 

[Dravidian]

Well that only works if he thinks he made mistakes and I'm pretty sure he does not...

LOL fair enough, though he doesnt seem the type believe he's infallible; he's cocky, though. I think Doa4 was simply an experiment that went wrong. Like that one time at band camp...

 

[Female Tengu]

Funny how he simply can't admit that DOA evolved into something better (besides the T&A) without(!) him.

Disgusting DLC? What is he complainig about? That's not a problem of DoA, that's the development of the industry (and also gamers) over the past years. Back then DLC for console games were rare, required a credit card to buy them, and outside of the U.S. not everyone had a CC > not many DLCs existed.
When the 360 hit the market and introduced a prepaid like currency everyone could buy in stores, it was just natural that DOA5, which was released during the time when the microtransactions and DLC flooded gaming market boomed, got the same treatment.
I'm not a fan of all the milking. But hating the game for it...? lol

Let's see how his game will compete with the market. THEN he can start talking for real.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Let's see....

-DOA5 Vanilla sold less than DOA3 or DOA4.... in Japan. (epic fail specially if you think about 3 & 4 being released on a niche console vs PS3).
-Releases post DOA5 Vanilla sold like crap.
-The franchise image on the media and average gamer is laughable.
-Very few people takes the game seriously when it comes to tournaments and competitive play.

Plus many other issues.

Sorry but I don't share your view about "doing pretty damn good ".

The only reason why DOA3 or DOA4 may be seen as more of a "success" than DOA5 is mostly due to them being in the right place at the right time on top of much better support and marketing. DOA3 & 4 were hyped launch releases for Xbox & Xbox 360 respectively with Tecmo and Microsoft supporting them since they were one of the bigger exclusives at the time for each console. In comparison DOA5 received very little marketing and relative support, and also released to much heavier competition back in 2012 when FG's were being spewed out left and right. DOA3 and DOA4 had relatively very little competition in contrast. DOA3 and DOA4 stood out because they looked better than any other FG at the time. By the time DOA5 released, other FG's caught up visually so it didn't stand out as much in that regard.

As for the tournament play, DOA5U consistently did better than the other 3D fighters in the US so I think you're way off the mark there. DOA3 & DOA4 did terribly with regards to tournament attendances and were commonly left off of tournament majors. DOA5 still has to fight off the stigma that the previous DOA's spilled on it, but has taken big strides to improve its image in comparison to the previous DOA's in the general FGC. In a year or two, as long as the DOA community and TN continue support for DOA5LR, I can see DOA further improving its stance in the FG community. Better than something like Tekken or SC that just continue to go downhill as time goes on.

 

[Kohlrak]

Yeah, definitely talking about different types of players. /shrug

I'm saying the distinction doesn't exist. This whole "there's 2 kinds of people" BS is just so we can say that anyone who isn't good now never will be, and they're not even worth talking about. I'll have you know, TN and TK don't care about you. YOU already bought the game. They're more worried about that guy who didn't buy the game. They're worried about people who may not buy the next one because they can't figure out what they're doing wrong. This is why we keep wondering why people keep saying people wont' help them. Right here: we keep writing them off as worthless mashers. Maybe we shouldn't worry about getting the community larger. Clearly it has enough people in it that we can pick and choose who we want.