From Minuet to Fighto! - Marie Rose lab thread

[Yaguar]

Just a thread so I can keep all the found tech from the early lab days between myself and qoodumai.
This way I just know what I'm updating, what I've posted before and qood can just read it quickly and tell me things I need to change. More will follow from this original post including a couple of Europeans laughing whilst we play and try to explain things in videos.

1. Guaranteed Stuff
2. Pseudo-Force Techs
3. Rondo: How does it work?
4. No Timing Power Launchers
5. Special Thanks
6. Updates

WIP:
1.x Advanced Hold Combo's
x. Frame Data (With Stagger details)
x. Make it look pretty
x. x

1. Guaranteed Stuff

The following things give a guaranteed follow up:
BT - +18 frames, turns opponent.
- +15 frames (fastest stagger), sitdown stun.
- +16 frames (fastest stagger, sitdown stun.
- +Lots, limbo stun.

Advanced holds: Coming Soon.

1.1 BT
- Offensive Hold
- Gives +18

is GUARANTEED after the OH.
At fastest stagger will leave you with +16 at threshold.

Anything within () is guaranteed.

None-Staggerable:
BT ( )
- is a threshold launcher i14. Doesn't give great height but stops stagger fans.

BT ( ) ()
- Never found a case where you aren't in the right stance to get the crumple.
That said if they counter they will turn and then it does become stance dependant. Like I said, never not seen it.

Reset:
BT ( )
- has a Rondo option and you can reset back into BT.

Effective options and use:
Depending on what your opponent does after initial you have a few options.
Vs. Fastest Stagger -
Vs. Counter - Reset // Condition to hold to give you CB options.
Vs. Fast Stagger -
Vs. Everything else -

1.2
- Easy execution
- +15 frames (Fastest Stagger)

is the only guaranteed follow up.

1.3
- +16 Frames (Fastest Stagger)

Any mid/low hitting move that is i14 or less is guaranteed from this sitdown.
(i12) / (i14) / (i14) / (i14)

1.4
- Caused in stun by (open/closed) stance.
- Caused when hitting behind in stun.
- You CANNOT Critical Burst from the limbo.

Gives a free launch. will launch as if you hit BT. is a solid option.
Light:
Mid:
Heavy:

1.5 Advanced Holds

- Coming Soon
2. Pseudo-Force Techs:
- +20 FT / +0 PFT
BT BT - +17 FT / ~+6 PFT

2.1 Setups
Light:
CH
CH

Universal:
Bound Stun >>
(Threshold Launch)

2.2 BT BT Setups

2.3 Tutorial Rambling Video

2.4 Pseudo-Force Tech Combo Video

3. How stuff works - Rondo parry
We've proven the math wrong but have found the correct formula.
Will update tonight!

3.1 Neutral Rondo
Neutral Rondo has a slightly different calculation to moves that cancel into it. This base calculation is still used in them but the major chunk can be ignored here so it gets its own little section.
Rondo has a base amount of +frames it gives.
Base Adv: +11 (we believe this to actually be +10 but you get +1 added in somewhere and this is always present, as such we included it in the base adv).
The rest of your +frames come from how long you have spent ACTIVE in Rondo. So if you parry later into rondo, you will get a higher advantage. Likewise if you parry sooner in rondo you will get less!
Advantage = Base Adv. + Number of active frames spent in Rondo.

So if you on NH, you are at +0. If your opponent attacks with an i10 as soon as they can and you Rondo on the same frame you will spend 10 frames in Rondo.

Advantage = 11 + 10.

Disclaimer: The extra base frame is assumed to come from here. A 10 frame move hits active on 12. We're assuming that Rondo has 1 secret frame too making a difference of 1. This is then added on to the base of 10 to make the calculation easier.

Note: If the player was to take an extra frame you would be in Rondo for 11 frames, another after that? 12 frames. It is the raw number of frames you spend in Rondo before the hit reaches you that is used to calculate the advantage not the strikes speed. It does however help to try work it out.

3.2 Rondo Cancel's - The X-Factor
Refining maths: Coming soon!


3.3 Rondo Cancels - Applying the X






- Will update when I remember any others.

Note: Whether this is a bug or not it is possible in the current version (1.05).

4. No Timing Power Launchers
Disclaimer: Marie vs. Marie tested so far.

4.1 Lightweight's
PL >> () - 99 Damage
PL >> () - 100 Damage
PL >> () - 100 Damage
Missing: 110 Damage Combo.

5. Special Thanks
qoodumai
- A lot of this is thanks to him if not 99%.

David Gregg
- For supplying the original image that I ruined into a banner.

Training Mode.
- We couldn't have done this without you!

Online Dojo
- Quite a bit of time has been spent in here.

6. Updates
- 31/3/14 - Fixed a few 9's to 7's. Minor Formatting fixes.
- 31/3/14 - Found new Rondo formula.
- 31/3/14 - Added neutral Rondo formula.
- 1/4/14 - Added a "super awesome" photoshop of David Gregg's image as a banner.
- 1/4/14 - Added a rambling tutorial video for PFT.
- 3/4/14 - Added PFT Combo Video. Best editor ever? I think so.

 

[just_me]

The Rondo Formula for cancels is the same, no?
It's just a display thingy that leads one to believe you get more advantage.
Seems like like most Rondo cancels calculate the advantage from the Frame where you are able to cancel into Rondo Moves (that is apparently before the Rondo recovery begins... should be 5 Frames, so around active Frame 20)
Neutral Rondo and Rondo don't do this though... nor does any Rondo~BT ( etc. ), since you can't use any Rondo Moves here (can't do Rondo Moves anymore as soon as you are Back turned)

So Rondo Advantage always ranges from 11-35... guess that's because someone decided that the max Advantage should be 35 and if you count down from there... you end up at +11 for active Frame #1, well it's a 25 Frame Range...

Other unusual stuff:
Looks like Rondo is considered a sidestep, since you get CH and Counter Thrown out of it (would have thought it's a Hold like Unshu)
So you also eat a CH during recovery... unless you do the BT cancel, that results in a NH for some reason.
e.g. Marie-Marie: hit with then do (neutral Rondo, not the cancel), if the other Marie s... it's a CH, if you do instead, the will be a NH.
Also doing the Transition to BT seems to alter the Window to get (Hi)Counter Modifiers
e.g. results in a Normal Parry, if the opponent throws out a immediately after blocking, results in a Hi-Counter Hold (and almost Max Advantage on top of it)...

 

[Yaguar]

The Rondo Formula for cancels is the same, no?

The cancel formula extends beyond +35. When you cancel any recovery you've served become start up frames of rondo. So for ...

(Taking numbers from heavily used pad so hope I've got the right ones)
12 (2) 18 / -8 on block.
5 (25) 10 / +42 on Parry (first possible frame from block stun)

If you take 8 from 18 they can go from frame 10. Add +10 for jab start up and you get 20th frame.
20 - 5 = 15 Rondo frames.

This by that logic should now be +26 frames advantage, but we're off by 16.
What we started working with (which doesn't work for everything so the math is wrong) is the following:
(Rondo Active Total + Base + (Recovery + advantage) - start up) + 1

(25 + 11 + (18 + -8) - 5) +1 = 42
You'd then add frames for every frame after the first available strike frame to increase your time in Rondo (up to a maximum of 25).

This one works for but isn't the right overall. I've got all the data I need, just have to find the time but I've got something that works in my head, just gotta put it through its paces.

 

[just_me]

The cancel formula extends beyond +35.

No... it doesn't.
At least you do not gain any additional usable advantage
As I stated above, it just shows the Advantage from a different reference point, that point is the Frame you are able to do moves from Rondo, not the point you return to neutral.
do and you'll see the numbers you expect.
As a simple sanity test you can also NH with and set the COM reaction to Jab... this will parry a 10 Frame Jab with +49 Advantage... now try to squeeze a Power Launcher in there, it won't work (and of course doing results in the expected +34)

 

[Yaguar]

snip

So does that just mean that the other does not show the first Rondo move frame?
I was ready to throw down a giant formula on how you get there.

I did notice that going into BT left you with the expected number but it never twigged why other than "Oh that must be the BT required frames".

 

[just_me]

So does that just mean that the other does not show the first Rondo move frame?
I was ready to throw down a giant formula on how you get there.

I did notice that going into BT left you with the expected number but it never twigged why other than "Oh that must be the BT required frames".

Not exactly sure what you are asking for tbh...
Rondo shows startup(active)recovery and gives you the advantage from the frame you return to neutral.
Any Rondo~BT transition shows the same data... so if you get your +16 a 14 frame move from Neutral/BT is really guaranteed.

Most "normal" Rondo cancels show the same startup etc. data (although it might show startup > 0, if you delay the cancel, which I think is not the best way to do it though...), but calculate the advantage from the point where you are able to do her 2 Rondo moves. The general rule for this is 5 Frames before Rondo's active frames end, Rondo recovery is always 10 Frames (active is not always 25 though... cancels have merely 20 active frames, but also yield up to +35, so you are better off calculating Rondo advantage counting down from the max instead of counting up from the base, since the base should be variable... while the max is fixed), so these cancels show you 15 additional frames of advantage. That is not all that useful though, since you can't delay the Rondo moves much (I think you can only delay till the end of the Rondo active frames)... and it's misleading for anything from neutral... well it does tell you though, that Rondo moves are guaranteed after a successful Parry...

Finally the cancels are a little different as well, they always have startup (while you can instantly cancel into Rondo after the moves active frame of the moves, can't you? Think I got 0 startup for all of them), probably because you still have to land from the jump, only 20 active frames and the same recovery. They do show the Rondo moves differently though... you can still see the active frames you spent in Rondo itself (so you get Rondo-startup(Rondo-active)Move-startup(Move-active)Recovery, which is nice... think they should always display the data this way, even for the initial cancel.
Gives you a large block like 12(2)4(20)16(2)24... but that contains at least all the information you need^^

So I think:
rondo_advantage = max_advantage - remaining_rondo_active
is good enough as a formula (a good old Courier New for anything code like )
where
remaining_rondo_active = max_active - parry_frame
max_active ∈{20,25}; parry_frame ∈[1, max_active_value] (mhm... did I do this right? xD)
wouldn't go any further than that... you just get a bloated formula no one ever uses xD

Ah crap... just noticed you can delay the for Rondo~BT transitions, too. So you can actually extend the Rondo active frames up to 30...

 

[boa0710]

About Pseudo-Force Techs:
CH,you can use BT>>>

 

[Yaguar]

About Pseudo-Force Techs:
CH,you can use BT>>>

This is awesome.
Just checked it in a match vs. Helena. Can also be done from BT as a bonus note.