You should stop playing Core Fighters people and you will see more than one setup.
Also, how is "launch, juggle, launch, juggle" any different than "mount, ground throw, mount, ground throw"?
well for starters, you can break out of mounts and ground throws, while all you can do with juggles is wait.
secondly, the difference is between the options. It'd be like if all Mila could do, or if all I did, is a standard standing tackle from neutral. Like, I know there ARE other launchers for say, Rachel and Momiji, but nobody uses anything except the SAME setups, because those are their BEST tools.
The issue I'm talking about here is a lack of viable variety.
Also, I think I've actually played you before, but I don't particularly remember your Momiji. Probably a good one though.
It sounds like you're just whining because you're losing to them?
And honestly, I can complain all day about the guaranteed ground throw setups that Mila has.
In short: I get beaten by the same thing over and over because I'm not able to force them to stop using it, so I'm annoyed and feel it needs to be changed.
I'm sure if I would play Rock, Paper, Scissors with you and I would win every round by picking paper, you would rather moan that I should use something different instead of just choosing scissors.
There is also a gameplay-strategy called "No-mixup-mixup", usually used when the opponent is not able to adapt an keeps playing with auto-pilot on. And if you are able to stop it, why should you care about how your opponent lost? You've won the game, mission accomplished, period. Seeing the same things and patterns does not necessarily mean the character needs to be changed, it's more the players "fault".
In general, players who are doing the same things over and over again either do so because it's always working for them or won't be very successful. If the former was the reason for you to create this thread, you should rather spend time on improving yourself, learning how to deal with. If it was the latter, you could just have stopped playing the people you are talking about and fight an actual opponent.
Stop creating a thread just because you are annoyed about certain things in the game that are not even worth being disscussed due to not being based on neutral facts or point of views. This forum is not your personal drama board and if you really feel you need to to unleash your anger here, please use your profile status instead.
Um.....I win most of the time. What now?
How bout this, stop trying to dismiss all complaints about mechanics just because you can use them to win?
When I complain about something, 99% of the time it has literally NOTHING to do with winning or losing, its objectively about the flaws with the mechanic itself, not "because I lost to it". I don't give a fuck if I lost to it. Or beat it.
The issue comes down to the fact that when ONE of a characters tools so heavily outweighs the rest of their tools, people will essentially rely solely on that ONE tool, whether its working out or not. And what this thread is about, is about giving them more viable tools, rather than relying on getting a lucky break to land a single big combo. Because until that happens, most people (even a lot of "high level" players) will focus on landing the ONE tool. They are unable or unwilling to switch tactics.
Like I fought one, ONE Momiji who dropped the air game when I kept holding it, and instead switched to grab punishes. I liked it, it threw me off because I admit, I autopilot half the time. The rest? Simply trying to rush in and launch over and over. Same thing with Rachel.
This is not "personal drama". I am aware that I can have a little too much bite to my words, but I am honestly nitpicking character designs, not "whining because I lost". I would have the same complaints against Mila if ALL she had was the juggles people look up on youtube, or if ALL she had was the mount tackle. I'm complaining about a characters strategy being one dimensional. I'm saying they should get more tools. I would LOVE to play more people who use these characters who can prove me wrong, but virtually everyone I've ever faced has done nothing but cement my opinion on them.
The stuff I bring up usually IS worth being discussed, but nobody wants to because "how dare you say anything but praise about my character".
So instead of trying to dismiss discussions as "u just mad cuz you lost", why not try to help improve the game and discuss possible other tools they could implement or improve?
Like with Rachel, I think it'd be cool if they brought back Nicole's emphasis on strikes and knockbacks, delegating her stomp and air game as OPTIONS, rather than as the CORE BASIS of her entire moveset. maybe give her twirl sidestep more utility. Get rid of the little kick after the stomp, to encourage other options. Momiji could use some better standard, horizontal combos, and maybe a second gimmick tool. (I haven't actually bought Momiji, so I'm judging her entirely on having fought her, though)
I'm actually starting up DOA4 now to rego through Nicoles options to see what they could/should bring back to help tweak Rachel to be better.
*goes through Nicoles training*
Yeah, even though they share some strings, Nicoles seem WAY faster, less interruptable. Rachel doesn't have that leaping straight punch. Most of Nicole's strings end in a straight attack, while Rachels are usually slow and only good for easy to read launchers.
I have both 360 and ps3 on right now, Nicole and Rachel in training, going down Nicole's moveset and trying to recreate them with Rachel to see what of Nicoles old moveset they should bring back to help Rachel.
Rachel could use Nicoles
8PP (rachel only has 8p, not the following straight punch)
3ppp (rachel's version is a much slower string of swinging mids)
3pp6ppp (Rachel doesn't have any options like this)
3ppkk (rachel can't switch to kicks off 3pp like nicole could)
6PPP (Rachel doesn't have the 3rd punch, only 6PPK version)
6pkk (Nicole's original felt faster)
4PP (Nicole could delay/charge the second P, unlike Rachel, although Rachel can continue the string for 4PPPP, while Nicole's simply shot the opponent backwards after the second P)
46P (Leon's tackle, Rachel is lacking it)
236p (Rising upper)
214p (Overhead slap, while Rachels 214 is essentially Nicoles old 236p)
3(Hold)P a straight hook, while all Rachel can do from that is her standard jab.
33p ( a quick diagonal crushing punch. Rachel has no options there)
66p (Nicoles was a high, not a mid, but thats mostly due to Nicole being way taller, also Nicoles sent them flying)
4k (Nicole had a spinning round house, Rachels is a standard small punt)
6kp (Nicoles P was the downshot from her 33p, while Rachels seems to be a slightly slower double armed full overhead, seemingly to make up for the difference in height)
8k (Nicoles was a launching up kick, Rachels is an overhead drop kick)
66p (Nicoles was faster)
4P+K (Nicole was a stance that led to a straight punch (but could be confused for kick version), while Rachels is the same double overhead from 6kp preceded by a small hop. So again, Nicoles was faster)
H+K (NIcoles was a quick rising knee to the face, Rachels is a slow roundhouse)
4H+K (Same stance as 4P+K, but leads to a kick instead, good for mixup from the stance. Rachel just has another slow spinning high kick)
3H+K (Nicole had a quick ankle sweep, Rachel tries to do her stomp even if the opponent isnt grounded. They should give her the quick sweep if the opponent isn't grounded, leaving the stomp as a down attack)
T (Quick face punch like Mila now has for Nicole, but slower than Mila's, a judo throw to the ground for Rachel)
4T (Holding the opponent up, then punching them back for Nicole. For Rachel, just a judo throw backwards, leaving them both grounded and getting up)
6T (for Nicole, Bayman's little "stomp on their foot and knee them to the side", for Rachel, its Nicole's 4T, but instead of knocking them away, she punches them up and lets them fall down, again, seemingly only good for setting up the stomp)
41236T (Nicole: Plasma throw, Essentially just holding them up, punching them, then kicking them back. Rachels version is the same except bouncing them off the ground instead of the kickback at the end)
214T (Lift up, punch, ground bounce, for Nicole. This became Rachels hcirlceT, only Nicole's bounced way higher with more hangtime.)
T to opponents back (Quick neck punch, like standard T throw, only to the back of the opponents head, leaving them stunned, Rachel has a leaping head drop that leaves both characters getting up. Nicoles seems far more useful)
4T, 4T on backfacing opponent (Leon/Bayman's hanging neck tree, only good for its own damage, but rachel has no other options against standing backfacing opponents, so another tool would be nice)
3T against crouching opponent (Nicole crushes and does a high groundbounce to the opponent, Rachel just does a quick little hit with her butt that barely even stuns. I think Rachel should get that ground bounce.)
2T against crouching opponents (Nicole does a necklift and punches them back, sending them flying, Rachel does an armlock and drops them with no ground bounce)
High Punch Hold (Nicole catches the punch, does two full armbars, the second slamming the opponent to the ground by their face. Rachels does a spinning trip punch that pushes the opponent away)
Mid Punch Hold (Nicole, does Leon's "Turnaround, neck snap, kick away", Rachel, punches the opponents feet out from under them and then does an overhead, driving them to the ground)
Mid Kick Hold (Nicole: Catches the kick and punches the opponent straight into the air, good for Followups. Rachel, same thing but a spinning double handed punch)
Low Punch Hold (NIcole, quickly catches punch and hits opponent to the ground face down next to her. Rachel: Long leaping throwdown that leaves opponent grounded)
Jumping Punch Hold (Nicole catches the opponent and face slams them to the ground. Rachel....i dunno what of Ayanes moves are aerial punches so I have a hard time checking)
Jumping Kick Hold (Nicole, catches and punches them face up to the ground by their stomach)
So overall, while Nicole couldn't do the extended combos Rachel can, she had WAY more options, with the moveset being geared more towards giving space, solid strikes, and bouncing the opponent off the environment (like Leon), while Rachel's actual strings and strikes suck for anything other than setting up her air throw or stomp, with most of her moves being slow and wonky, and half of her grabs and holds being no good for followups, leaving her kinda helpless if she can't set up her combo. I don't MAIN Rachel, but that's what I got off of just comparing the movelists in training. I really think they should merge more of Nicoles old set with Rachel to give her some better options.
The newer character just don't feel as fleshed out as the older ones, yes, even Mila and Rig, but I feel like the Ultimate on characters are worse. Mila and Nyo are "the" most fleshed out to me, simply because of the defined fighting style (former) and having a full moveset from a past character (Nyo), even if both still have a "gimmick", they still have multiple tools, not just one.
And even then, some of us choose not to complain, because most of us acknowledge it's our own fault for being to predictable with mid punches/kicks or low kicks, and not trying to get into the opponent's head to use their strengths to our advantage. That's how winning is done.
And if that's not enough, Mila has a guaranteed ground bounce from a low punch hold. Ultimately, highs are the least threatening holds (she has no guaranteed followup there), but that still doesn't take away the fact Mila has plenty of tools to get by, even against the characters
@Argentus is losing to.
Thank you.
As for "just mad cuz you lost", Awesmic kicks my ass up and down the arena, but I'm not gonna complain about Christie being one dimensional because she's NOT. She's a straight striker, but its not the SAME setup over and over, its just me not being able to deal with his lightspeed christie, and that's on me. Same deal with Ayane. They are too fast for me to read for holds to mount, and are a nightmare to fight, but I'm not gonna say they are "one dimensional", when thats not an issue at all. I just hate how fast they are. (And how ayane launches by just LOOKING at you lol)
