Rachel nerfs

[Nobus3r1]

+ High damaging combo's.

Compared to most of the cast I suppose. Compared to other Super Heavyweights not really from what I've seen.

+ Plenty of safe strings.

From both experience and frame data there isn't a ton of overlap between strings that are safe and strings that are useful (i.e. KK is safe on block but you'd never use it because if it hits you're doing your opponent a favor).

+ Two running attacks, one which is -2 the other which is +5 on block.

Both of these attacks suck. Easy to avoid or hit her out of. Also terrible to use as an approach.

+ +15/+11 FT's, just like Vanilla Helena except almost x3 better.

I question the +11 but I'll take your word on the rest.

+ An OH from her jab string.

Crouchable on reaction. Not particularly useful.

+ In strings lows that are +5 on NH, lows of that speed are almost always -4 on NH.

This is where I am genuinely curious how other characters stack up while being simultaneously disappointed at how much of a mess the frame data on the Wiki here is.

+ Can air throw from the most pathetic launch height.

I honestly don't see why this matters. To me, the air throw is just combo fodder. She can set up a force tech after a launch with or without it. The height at which this picks up seems irrelevant.

IF she gets a nerf it will only be a reduction to how much frame advantage she gets from her FT and that's it. She will still be piss easy to use, just basic launch > air grab > FT rinse and repeat till the match is over. The only difference will be that you might have to make better reads after FT, that's it.

If she gets a nerf I wouldn't count on anything. The 1.03 patch for vanilla makes me think that pretty much any dumb idea Team Ninja might have or any dumb(er) that they might accept from users is on the table.

Characters like her shouldn't be top tier in the first place. Why should someone learn a character with between 100 and 200 moves and multiple stances just to have someone pick a character like her, learn one combo and be a massive threat as a result? As soon as you launch the opponent the match should be over, she has such a massive advantage that as long as you have even slight oki skills the opponent should never have the opportunity to recover. This would be fine if she had to work hard to get the opponent in the air in the first place but she doesn't.

Why should the number of moves a character has matter with regards to what tier they are? Is Brad S+ tier because he has ~70 more moves than the next largest moveset in the game? This is just a baffling way of thinking to me. What should matter is how useful the moves are not how many you have at your disposal. You also vastly overstate the post-stomp process in that if they guess right (most likely via the wonderful science of blocking) the entire situation is reset slightly in their advantage.

If players who picked Rachel up want to believe that suddenly they have becomes top tier players that's fine but don't sit about and say she is just "meh" and that people have no valid complaints about her as a character, it shows your bias.

And you show your bias when you insult an entire group of people while trying to formulate an argument. I imagine it's because you view people playing Rachel as tier-whores. Well, you know what, so what? I've played shitty characters in other games and that isn't fun. So far, I would say Rachel is, at best, in the bottom half of the top 10. I would also say that to me, when people are blocking (or side-stepping) 8K post-stomp and 6KP post-tech roll as opposed to getting lit up by those follow-ups (i.e. people have actually studied the matchup and are aware of the various options) then I'll be more open to whether said complaints are valid or not. If I'm hitting someone with 6KP five times in a row with him tech rolling every time before he finally holds the mid-kick starter we aren't talking about grounds for a complaint. We're talking about grounds for slapping him upside the head while telling him to hit the lab.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

If you know all what she wants is to stun > launch > FT, then why are you falling for the same setups?

Because unfortunately she can delay her strings, and what happens if she hits you with a delayed string? She puts you back into her FT loop, and what happens if she finishes her strings? More often than not she is safe.

She doesn't even have me in stun and if I make one mistake blocking I end up in her FT nonense and if I guess right well she's safe anyway so I get nothing as a result.

It's stupid, she's all low risk / high reward.

@Nobus3r1 Do you know how crappy running attacks are in DOA? Running attacks do not track and are almost always unsafe on block. Hitomi is fortunate to have a safe running attack and a guard crushing mid kick, although it is slow as balls. You don't realise how well Rachel came off not only having a safe running attack but one that gives her +5.

It's that +5 and her OH that make her FT so dangerous. In Vanilla Helena had +4 but had no way of landing a guard crush with her frame advantage, and her only way of throwing you was if she knew you wouldn't try and beat out her +4, and if she guessed wrong she would lose most of her health bar as a result. Rachel has so much frame advantage that she can do anything that she wants.

From FT:
To avoid her OH the opponent has only two options, duck or throw. If she attacks you go right back into her FT either way.

To avoid her attack you must block, remember she can leave you at -5 very easily, you can SS but then you will eat a normal throw an OH or a tracking move.

You said I overstate the post stomp process, but this is the ugly truth of how to entire match plays based on her landing one hit. In Vanilla if Helena did anything other than her fastest pokes you could put her in stun and turn the entire match around, and remember Helena has no access to +5 guard crushes or an OH to make getting out of her FT loop even harder.

The reason I keep referencing Helena is because before 5U it was general consensus even amongst Helena players that her ability to keep looping FT from every single one of her options was BS. TN slapped her with a bunch of nerfs and changed the ground game to stop it happening with any character. Then turned around and stuck Rachel in the game with a super charged version of Helena's Vanilla ground game. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[StrikerSashi]

What's wrong with good okizeme? I don't understand.

 

[Nobus3r1]

It's stupid, she's all low risk / high reward.

And your solution based on your design philosophy, from what I'm seeing, would be to turn that into low risk/no reward. I also disagree on a theoretical level that simple shouldn't also be good. Simple shouldn't be the best. There should be a reward for learning things of greater complexity (when there isn't that means that the game designers have failed). But to say that simple can't or shouldn't be good is very limiting. IMO, whether you like such characters or not, fighting games need their 'Ryu' (Street Fighter) characters. That said if I had to compare Rachel to a SFIV character right at this moment it would probably be Ibuki (SFIV AE2012 version; i.e. not 3rd Strike).

@Nobus3r1 Do you know how crappy running attacks are in DOA? Running attacks do not track and are almost always unsafe on block. Hitomi is fortunate to have a safe running attack and a guard crushing mid kick, although it is slow as balls. You don't realise how well Rachel came off not only having a safe running attack but one that gives her +5.

Considering that it's her only (usable) guard crush that actually puts her at frame advantage and that the move is incredibly telegraphed I'd pretty much call it a wash.

It's that +5 and her OH that make her FT so dangerous. In Vanilla Helena had +4 but had no way of landing a guard crush with her frame advantage, and her only way of throwing you was if she knew you wouldn't try and beat out her +4, and if she guessed wrong she would lose most of her health bar as a result. Rachel has so much frame advantage that she can do anything that she wants.

Her OH doesn't guarantee shit unless it's CH in which case I'm (and hopefully you are as well) fine with a player being punished for making the incorrect choice. Rachel is fairly simple and linear but that doesn't mean everything's been figured out yet. That said so far, to me, PPT and 66T look more like cute tricks that get pulled out once in a while rather than integral parts of her strategy.

From FT:
To avoid her OH the opponent has only two options, duck or throw. If she attacks you go right back into her FT either way.

Not seeing the problem here. If she's doing PPT then I'd ask why aren't you holding and either way that string is easily crouch-able which will also block PP2K with PP4P being a minor nuisance that leads to nothing else. I've also found that 66T is, given its speed, so far on the borderline of usable.

To avoid her attack you must block, remember she can leave you at -5 very easily, you can SS but then you will eat a normal throw an OH or a tracking move.

Oooh, tracking moves. Yeah, she has two tracking strings to worry about (i.e. they track and can lead back into a FT situation). Both are unsafe on block and both are ridiculously easy to hold.

You said I overstate the post stomp process, but this is the ugly truth of how to entire match plays based on her landing one hit. In Vanilla if Helena did anything other than her fastest pokes you could put her in stun and turn the entire match around, and remember Helena has no access to +5 guard crushes or an OH to make getting out of her FT loop even harder.

The reason I keep referencing Helena is because before 5U it was general consensus even amongst Helena players that her ability to keep looping FT from every single one of her options was BS. TN slapped her with a bunch of nerfs and changed the ground game to stop it happening with any character. Then turned around and stuck Rachel in the game with a super charged version of Helena's Vanilla ground game. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

I am willing to concede that some of this may eventually be proven correct. Eventually. That said it looks to me like they stuck character that's much slower than Helena into the game with a slightly better ground game and precious little else. That said given how central the force tech is to Rachel's game it seems like she was mostly, regardless of how much sense you think it makes, designed entirely around this concept.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

What's wrong with good okizeme? I don't understand.

Removing it from every single character and then letting only one character have it is the problem. If the ground game was the same as Vanilla we wouldn't be having this debate because even though Rachel's would be far superior to the rest of the cast at least other characters could do it, even if it was less effective.

TN's logic was to not let any character set up PFT and then create a character that not only can do it but far better than even Helena could in Vanilla.

@Nobus3r1 It doesn't matter how long Ultimate has been out, this tech is absolute. Unless equally strong tech is found with other characters which won't happen seeing as most of the cast are almost identical as their Vanilla counterparts, then we are stuck in a situation where one character has something that the rest of the cast have no real tools to deal with except rolling a dice until they guess right. It's a lousy way to play.

Lastly about Rachel being much slower than Helena:
Helena i11/i12/i14
Rachel i11/i13/i14
They are essentially the same speed based on pokes, and Rachel's FT set ups are a lot better than Helena's were in Vanilla. Please don't call them slightly better, Rachel has x3 the frame advantage Helena did and better tools to go along with it.

Quick edit: Took her to the lab to see if her PPT / PP2K was really as worthless as people are making it sound as what are the odds, she has a mid punch variant that is -1 on block. OH/+5 low kick/-1 on block mid punch yeah that string is definitely good.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Like I said, crouching beats every option. Mid punch hurts Rachel more than it helps unless it kills. Also, a lot of characters can still force tech. GenFu even still has a vortex.

 

[Lyn]

Because unfortunately she can delay her strings, and what happens if she hits you with a delayed string? She puts you back into her FT loop, and what happens if she finishes her strings? More often than not she is safe.

Hayate, Kokoro, Hitomi, Sarah are also able to delay strings that can catch people off-guard and make instant CH. That doesn't necessarily guarantee anything.

The FT forces you to guess. Prior knowledge of Rachel moveset and tendencies should already give you an idea of what she's going to do.

PPT string will leave her more negative than she ever would wish to be; her throw will only allow one follow-up once she's behind you. These sequences aren't impossible to read and can be handled when given to you.

You don't need Godlike reactions because her FASTEST attack is an 11F string that can be held or crouched.

Why do people hate one of the few characters with a vortex? This is nothing more than pure ignorance of the mechanic.

You guess right, the game becomes neutral and Rachel has to once again whiff and unsafely poke her way in.

You guess wrong, you're going to take damage.

Learn the matchup.

 

[Nobus3r1]

@Nobus3r1 It doesn't matter how long Ultimate has been out, this tech is absolute. Unless equally strong tech is found with other characters which won't happen seeing as most of the cast are almost identical as their Vanilla counterparts, then we are stuck in a situation where one character has something that the rest of the cast have no real tools to deal with except rolling a dice until they guess right. It's a lousy way to play.

I like how you speak like you know everything about how the game is and ever will be. There aren't any absolutes. I can also say that the training mode computer has shown me that you're wrong. Haven't recorded this. Not sure if it's character or terrain specific but there have been a number of times where the computer tech rolls the stomp (i.e. stomp misses) and Rachel is left with her back turned to the opponent (i.e. they're free and clear of any vortex). Figure out how to replicate that = problem (possibly) solved. Or at the vest least it's a start.

Lastly about Rachel being much slower than Helena:
Helena i11/i12/i14
Rachel i11/i13/i14
They are essentially the same speed based on pokes, and Rachel's FT set ups are a lot better than Helena's were in Vanilla. Please don't call them slightly better, Rachel has x3 the frame advantage Helena did and better tools to go along with it.

I was more thinking in terms of movement speed and the ability to get started the mixups started. As already mentioned Rachel's longer distance pokes, tracking moves and guard breaks aren't so good (and they certainly aren't fast)

Quick edit: Took her to the lab to see if her PPT / PP2K was really as worthless as people are making it sound as what are the odds, she has a mid punch variant that is -1 on block. OH/+5 low kick/-1 on block mid punch yeah that string is definitely good.

Perhaps you should go back to the lab. I say this because I am forced to ask why, after a FT or tech roll in which I am +15 or +11 respectively (still doubt 2nd number), would I ever want to do something that leaves me at less frame advantage than I started at and/or doesn't lead back into a FT situation? NH PPT leaves me at +9 (assuming they don't hold consecutive high punches). Yeah, I'm on their back but I am at less advantage than I was before. I cannot even count the number of times that trying to get cute with this has gotten me killed. Next we have PP2K and PP4P. The first option lets you play the stun game with Rachel which, given her aforementioned limited moveset, is not an area that I feel she excels in while the second option leads to nothing. In both base bases congratulations are in order because you've most likely let them out of the vortex. Which, last I checked, is essentially the opposite of what the Rachel player should be trying to accomplish. Pretty sure that in general whether they get stomped or tech roll you should be looking for stuff that leads directly back into more stomps. Stuff like 4PPP, 8K and 41236T on hit and 6KP, 6PP and if you're really brave (or the opponent is really passive) 41236T on tech roll.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

Rachel is one of the few (if not the only) characters in the game that can't do anything about lows or the opponents offense. As we already know, her spacing is ass and her defense is ASS... since she has none of this is it too much to ask that her offense be good enough so that even people with a good understanding of the game respect her setups? Really let's be truly honest, paying attention to move animations makes it really easy to smack this character it's just all mids and lackluster jab strings. IMO when I fight Rachels now, they all seem pretty free to me... its because I went to the lab and learned the matchup, so quit crying and practice up...

 

[RubinRoon]

Are we agreeing that her whiffed 2k stomp needs to be negative or at least zero? I lost track of what people are actually arguing for.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

Are we agreeing that her whiffed 2k stomp needs to be negative or at least zero? I lost track of what people are actually arguing for.

I think that it's agreed that the whiffed stomp (2K) should be negative on wake up, but not punishable IMO... If Rachel is getting hit with 40-60 dmg for whiffing a high-priority move, there won't be any reason to keep going for the move and she'll have to basically go about dealing with wakeup game like a regular character...

 

[StrikerSashi]

Actually, I insist that the stomp be buffed indirectly by giving her a way of securing it guaranteed, without the option of back teching it. Some other part of her can be nerfed (loop damage or reach), but I want the stomp to stay as an extremely strong force tech.

 

[Drake Aldan]

So. The default has come. This is financial armageddon.


Oh, wait, no, that's just the sound of nerfs. Carry on.




From what I can see, 6PK and 3PP are worthless now to set up the stomp, as stomp has so much recovery that you can get pwned with i21 moves, and the opponent can left side tech now.

9P works (to my knowledge, I need to test it on heavyweights) but you're at disadvantage on back tech. But I mean we all knew that was coming.


4PP being more holdable now is ugh, and I really could have gone without 66K being +1 on block

but it is what it is.



I bet people will still bitch about Rach regardless.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

you forgot 1pp and 214p now being -15 on block making them i12 throw punishable which means up against the likes of busa, leon, and other characters with high damaging 12frame throws she'll be eating a lot more damage if carelessly throwing them out. she definitely drops down a tier or two with the changes.no way is she is anywhere near top now

 

[d3v]

So the question is, does she still have any guaranteed stomp setups?

 

[Drake Aldan]

snip

Yeah, I didn't wanna talk about that.

I mean you're right. You are right. It's just that 1PP/214P were unsafe to begin with so it doesn't really affect how I play.

So the question is, does she still have any guaranteed stomp setups?

Did she ever? Wasn't it all back techable?

6KP and similar knockdowns seem the same, 6PPK/9K seem the same.

Disadvantage seems to vary. Numbers are showing up for me now (they didn't before?)
6PPK/9K is -2 on whiff (Not bad...)
6KP is -11 (!!!)
And yes, that is throw punishable -11!

9P, stomp whiff is -3.
6PK, stomp whiff is -13.
3PP, stomp whiff is -12.

 

[d3v]

Wasn't 9P guaranteed before? At least from testing the CPU could never tech out of it and I believe Matt mentioned that the CPU techs one frame fore human players can tech.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Not to my knowledge. 9P was back techable before, I know this because SonicFox never switched to 6PK/3PP.

Unless we were all doing it wrong.



Oh Jesus, 4T, stomp whiff is up to -23 when teched. My sides. Make it stop...


It seems like stomp use is gonna be very specialized at this speed and recovery (I would consider 8P+K type to be in the same class). So... Rachel has two heavy down attacks now.

Damage reduction to 15 is kind of a slap in the face at this point. But whatever.

 

[Nobus3r1]

Yeah, I didn't wanna talk about that.

I mean you're right. You are right. It's just that 1PP/214P were unsafe to begin with so it doesn't really affect how I play.


Did she ever? Wasn't it all back techable?

6KP and similar knockdowns seem the same, 6PPK/9K seem the same.

Disadvantage seems to vary. Numbers are showing up for me now (they didn't before?)
6PPK/9K is -2 on whiff (Not bad...)
6KP is -11 (!!!)
And yes, that is throw punishable -11!

9P, stomp whiff is -3.
6PK, stomp whiff is -13.
3PP, stomp whiff is -12.

I was getting -7 for 6K, stomp whiff. If they're going to make the move suck I'd rather they'd just replaced it with something else.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Uh oh, 4PP nerf affected some of her combos, too...

She pretty much revolved around the blender, and now from what I can see, the blender is totally wrecked. (I mean unless you wanna play Russian Roulette and get throw punished.)

I guess I'll be working on the combo page for a while and scrapping together a new gameplan.

Hrm, I wonder what sort of implications this is going to have... Can I even make people scared to stay on the ground at this point? Hrmmm...