but they can wake up kick after it, which is half the point of it.
I've tried doing wake up kicks after a whiffed stomp FT, and Rachel ends up being behind her opponent in back turn position about a little more than half of the time. If that does happen, with enough reflex, Rachel can just throw out a move from her backturns. Of course, this is only a theory as I personally haven't tried it out. I don't know how long the wakeup invincibility lasts to see if its punishable in this situation.
When it comes to wakeup kicks, you can always hold it, as those are easy to see.
First, don't use 1PP regularly; it's kind of an online string because it's completey reactable offline.
I know that, was just giving a sample combo that guaranteed a stomp. Plus 1PP is pretty much her best launcher, from the time I've spent experimenting with her. I could be wrong.
the stomp isn't plus (and never really was) on whiff
Sorry if I sound like a noob here, but when you say "stomp whiff", are we talking the whole stomp whiffing completely or just that FT kick she does at the end of the stomp whiffing?
I know that if it whiffs completely, then you're at about -1 to -3. There's no frame data shown from the FT whiff though, so thats what I was really asking for is whether or not Rachel is at +/- frames after the FT whiffs. Because even when poking jabs out with Hayate after he wakes up from the Whiffed FT, I get a counter hit, Hayate's jab is i10 whereas Rachel's i11. So if Rachel really is at negative on a whiffed FT, shouldn't Hayate be the one to get the counter hit and not Rachel? I've even used i13 moves against Hayate's i10 jabs, and I still get a counter hit.
Your hitbox explanation does make sense, but I really haven't tried it out and see if Hayate's P beats out Rachel's 6P on neutral. If it does then, hitbox isn't probably relevant to this situation.
Thats the only conclusion I can come to after doing some "counter hit" experiment, unless this has to do with the frame disadvantage(would this be the correct term?) from having to wakeup before being able to input anything.
but she's actually got stronger FT setups that give her more frame advantage than the stomp
Looks like I might need to hit the lab more with Rachel. I always thought her only FT game was from her stomp.