Characters Should Alpha have wake-up-kicks in Last Round?

[KING JAIMY]

Lag heavy? If you mean with the complaint of lag when a player not using Alpha loses to her? That is garbage! (Prove me wrong in a mirror match!) She is just as fucked in lag like everybody else! You can't exactly use that frame data/lag meme with Alpha like you can Christie! Yet, I often hear how fucked up Phase 4 is, but blame TN for thinking a VF "faux" character would work! People already state how difficult Akira is to use (and quite dangerous at that). Both characters by popular opinion are useless in lag though! Just saying!

Alpha by no means under-powered or OP, but try telling someone that Phase 4 and Kasumi are weak and folks will be throwing darts! Like you said, it's just the hate talking!

Btw, I wasn't intending to blow up at you. I just think folks revel now that it's easy to beat her and how she (no matter how good the player is) now struggle to beat the other characters. The other characters struggle, too, but the level of hate/disrespect is nowhere near as high as it is against Alpha. I wonder how she managed to get fans and players behind her?

*shrugs*

Prove you in a mirror match? Then stop declining my ranked match requests first...

In all seriousness, what I meant by lag heavy is that she can mash out of throw punishment/negative frames online. 'Lag heavy' only applies to online though, obviously. That being said, every character gets a pain to fight online, but with Alpha 152 it's a little over the top.

And I can use Akira in lag effectively, trust me!

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Why laugh? When a computer AI or expert player uses her properly, she's difficult to beat. That's why I'm guessing she never appears on legend arcade mode. I dont really have issues with her, because she's so predictable and defenseless, but you can't just laugh at people who aren't used to fighting her....she was a nightmare in DOA4

All somebody has to do: I've been through it, just rush her! I've fought knew players and I tell them this; yet, I've also played players that figured this out immediately. So, do you see why he laughs? I've played DOAN in mirrors and he's beaten me all but one time, I think! However, I believe he watches me more than he fights me. I want him to see what I'm doing right or wrong. But I'd laugh, too if I were him because someone told me way before I began serious training that the way to get better is to fight your own character. I also hear "I can't stand this character, so I will learn this character!" IOW, if you're having trouble against her, play as her! This is essentially: "To beat your opponent, you must become your opponent!" (Of course, what bothers me regarding mirrors is the intent to show up instead of helping. Sometimes this can be misinterpreted. Right, DOAN? I've blown up at other players, too, due to this assumption).

Those who play as or against her fervidly know her strengths & weaknesses & and know how to compensate or find adequate balance. It took awhile for me, but I found it. Do I always win? No, but I don't always lose either.

Let DOAN laugh at you! When you get to the point where you can upstage and beat him, laugh right back at him!! I'm certain we shared quite a few though he's upstaged me alot, but I'm not mad. At least he sees, I'm getting better and that's something that's no laughing matter!

@KING JAIMY haha! Touchè! And she is OTT, but she's not immune to lag despite being over the top! If lag doesn't stop Christie.

I fought you before and you're too much for me! I'm not ready for you. I've fought DOAN multiple times and I'm still not ready for him either! You don't need to prove to me that you're good. I already know this! You've earned my respect as have the other players who've kicked my ass despite the amount of salt I've tasted!

 

[deathofaninja]

There is no excuse for regular players that still haven't adapted to nerfs and two games later. People are still bitching like Alpha is a top-tier character and completely dismiss all of her weaknesses because she has three critical bursts... that aren't guaranteed.

MY character (unlike Kasumi) has to play CONSTANT guessing games and hope she's right. You can duck out of almost every useful tool that Alpha has.

 

[deathofaninja]

Prove you in a mirror match? Then stop declining my ranked match requests first...

In all seriousness, what I meant by lag heavy is that she can mash out of throw punishment/negative frames online. 'Lag heavy' only applies to online though, obviously. That being said, every character gets a pain to fight online, but with Alpha 152 it's a little over the top.

And I can use Akira in lag effectively, trust me!

I think Christie, Ayane and Helena are a bigger problem in lag because they have more moves and are less predictable. If you have problems with Alpha in lag, it's probably a partial excuse, because her speed becomes nerfed and her move are easier to see (which means free hold)... that's why I lose to scrubs online that lag, because it doesn't work in my favor.

They can duck out of burst in lag, or rush or break... anybody could in lag unless their reaction time is horrible. In lag I would go for the free hold on a slow move, but I don't have damaging counters... I have a parry that misses depending on distance of the move, and I have a counter that gives me no damage or no safety.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

There is no excuse for regular players that still haven't adapted to nerfs and two games later. People are still bitching like Alpha is a top-tier character and completely dismiss all of her weaknesses because she has three critical bursts... that aren't guaranteed.

MY character (unlike Kasumi) has to play CONSTANT guessing games and hope she's right. You can duck out of almost every useful tool that Alpha has.

But they watch her get pwned in a tournament! I don't guess at all and I still get creamed. Honestly, I don't think she has guarantees! leading to a SDS (You probably knew this), you can hold ot of that shit! (not even thinking of which is what is often expected) I was floored when I saw that!

For someone who has plenty of options ...

 

[KING JAIMY]

I think Christie, Ayane and Helena are a bigger problem in lag because they have more moves and are less predictable. If you have problems with Alpha in lag, it's probably a partial excuse, because her speed becomes nerfed and her move are easier to see (which means free hold)... that's why I lose to scrubs online that lag, because it doesn't work in my favor.

They can duck out of burst in lag, or rush or break... anybody could in lag unless their reaction time is horrible. In lag I would go for the free hold on a slow move, but I don't have damaging counters... I have a parry that misses depending on distance of the move, and I have a counter that gives me no damage or no safety.

Free holds ONLINE? That's new to me because I always believed that holds don't work properly online - and they really, really don't. Therefore I think lag is a legitimate excuse, and this applies not only to 152, but to all characters.

And you have a point: Alpha needs better holds. In my opinion much better than adding mid and low wake-up kicks for her.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Free holds ONLINE? That's new to me because I always believed that holds don't work properly online - and they really, really don't. Therefore I think lag is a legitimate excuse, and this applies not only to 152, but to all characters.

And you have a point: Alpha needs better holds. In my opinion much better than adding mid and low wake-up kicks for her.

Free holds = she can be held out of everything! And sometimes lag is not the cause of mistimed holds! Most people generally hold spam (I've already written a dissertation about this) against her if they aren't told to just rush her down, of course. If they didn't spend hours in the lab getting the timing down since they claim her strikes are so quick, when in reality Christie forces greater emphasis on Continuous Guard and all she has to do is one canned string whereas Alpha is at a huge disadvantage if she finishes hers:

PPPPPPP = Float = I'm done! (I can cancel it, but that doesn't guarantee me safety either)
PPPPP or oodles of variants = Heh, continue on!

Anyway, I train with one of my coaches sometimes and he barks at his controller (I bark at mine, too) about holds that come out when he didn't want them to or holds tat didn't when he did! When you combined that with lag, I would think anybody who isn't Christie is done! (Helena may get an HM)

What you're missing is how Alpha actually slows down in lag! I can't even release a simple i9 if the lag is remotely retarted! Yet, i9s beat out any and everything, right? And then you have the mashing complaint - well, tbf, when you're exposed to lag such as that, you have no choice but to mash! This is why the complaints regarding the netcomde which sadly won't be any better on current gen from what I've read and heard!

Hell, I beat somebody in a lobby who was Ayane - no lag; yet, "Mash & Delay #Your Alphasucks!" But the netcode! Most people agree is awful!

I'm curious as to what you mean by better holds because one poster and most feel if she has legit holds, she'd be unstoppable. However, before that I was told, that she needed none because someone else had made a point about nerfing Kasumi to make Phase 4 look stronger in comparison.

I said something to the effect of: "You're wondering why Phase 4 has no parries? If you've notice, they split up Kasumi's between the two of them - Kasumi has both, Alpha has no holds, but parries while Phase 4 has no parries, but holds. Why not give the latter two access to both)

What I do not get given how all three can effectively crossup with essentially the same moves:

(though you have to be at a certain distance or hope the opponent ducks to in fact cross up)
, (excluding Phase 4; btw, Kasumi's parry is more useful as there is no KB. With Alpha, due to KB, it's most effective at a wall. There's a combo in combo challenge to demonstrate against, who else - Kasumi)
(, , ) (Opponent position dependent)
(deliberately, mistime the half)
(Not sure if the input is the same for Kasumi/Phase)
RUSH & sometimes BURST (Alpha only)
Kasumi/Phase 4 having expert holds allowing them to cross-under (Phase's move is Ryu's actually)

So, what do you mean by better holds? If you mean holds that actually do damage - even if a little bit, perhaps; yet, she would be OP since she's just utterly stupid on offense! (I agree, she's not, of course)

What are your thoughts though? I would imagine anything else she gets will be AI exclusive! Don't want players abusing shit! They already abuse the very little she already has!

 

[KING JAIMY]

Free holds = she can be held out of everything! And sometimes lag is not the cause of mistimed holds! Most people generally hold spam (I've already written a dissertation about this) against her if they aren't told to just rush her down, of course. If they didn't spend hours in the lab getting the timing down since they claim her strikes are so quick, when in reality Christie forces greater emphasis on Continuous Guard and all she has to do is one canned string whereas Alpha is at a huge disadvantage if she finishes hers:

PPPPPPP = Float = I'm done! (I can cancel it, but that doesn't guarantee me safety either)
PPPPP or oodles of variants = Heh, continue on!

Anyway, I train with one of my coaches sometimes and he barks at his controller (I bark at mine, too) about holds that come out when he didn't want them to or holds tat didn't when he did! When you combined that with lag, I would think anybody who isn't Christie is done! (Helena may get an HM)

What you're missing is how Alpha actually slows down in lag! I can't even release a simple i9 if the lag is remotely retarted! Yet, i9s beat out any and everything, right? And then you have the mashing complaint - well, tbf, when you're exposed to lag such as that, you have no choice but to mash! This is why the complaints regarding the netcomde which sadly won't be any better on current gen from what I've read and heard!

Hell, I beat somebody in a lobby who was Ayane - no lag; yet, "Mash & Delay #Your Alphasucks!" But the netcode! Most people agree is awful!

I'm curious as to what you mean by better holds because one poster and most feel if she has legit holds, she'd be unstoppable. However, before that I was told, that she needed none because someone else had made a point about nerfing Kasumi to make Phase 4 look stronger in comparison.

I said something to the effect of: "You're wondering why Phase 4 has no parries? If you've notice, they split up Kasumi's between the two of them - Kasumi has both, Alpha has no holds, but parries while Phase 4 has no parries, but holds. Why not give the latter two access to both)

What I do not get given how all three can effectively crossup with essentially the same moves:

(though you have to be at a certain distance or hope the opponent ducks to in fact cross up)
, (excluding Phase 4; btw, Kasumi's parry is more useful as there is no KB. With Alpha, due to KB, it's most effective at a wall. There's a combo in combo challenge to demonstrate against, who else - Kasumi)
(, , ) (Opponent position dependent)
(deliberately, mistime the half)
(Not sure if the input is the same for Kasumi/Phase)
RUSH & sometimes BURST (Alpha only)
Kasumi/Phase 4 having expert holds allowing them to cross-under (Phase's move is Ryu's actually)

So, what do you mean by better holds? If you mean holds that actually do damage - even if a little bit, perhaps; yet, she would be OP since she's just utterly stupid on offense! (I agree, she's not, of course)

What are your thoughts though? I would imagine anything else she gets will be AI exclusive! Don't want players abusing shit! They already abuse the very little she already has!

They could give her holds which do damage but not too much damage (somewhere in the range of 20 dmg a hold would be fine I'd say, not more because she needs to be balanced).

I never noticed that 152 slows down that much in lag! I thought that was the case for all characters, so I will test this out soon.

I believe it's fair and square for Alpha to have legitimate holds so that she has more defensive options.

 

[deathofaninja]

Free holds ONLINE? That's new to me because I always believed that holds don't work properly online - and they really, really don't. Therefore I think lag is a legitimate excuse, and this applies not only to 152, but to all characters.

And you have a point: Alpha needs better holds. In my opinion much better than adding mid and low wake-up kicks for her.

She has her own unique wake up technology and it sucks. If I'm fighting a character like Leifang, Nyo, Ein or Tina... if they time their OH perfectly it might as well be guaranteed. I agree... Alpha has some things that are on paper -- godlike sounding... but executing her best tech requires a good mind fuck.

You saw Xcal's Alpha at TFC right? Shooting burst left and right, but each one of those burst's was well earned and he sacrificed his life every time he made the attempt.

 

[KING JAIMY]

She has her own unique wake up technology and it sucks. If I'm fighting a character like Leifang, Nyo, Ein or Tina... if they time their oh perfectly it might as well be guaranteed.

Bayman vs Alpha must be massively in Alpha's disfavor then . As Bayman has countless OHs. If I recall correctly, the H+K special wake-up is unsafe too. So yeah, her current wake-up game is shitty to express it nicely. But something tells me that it's balanced the way it is right now. Remember, every character has their advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

They could give her holds which do damage but not too much damage (somewhere in the range of 20 dmg a hold would be fine I'd say, not more because she needs to be balanced).

I never noticed that 152 slows down that much in lag! I thought that was the case for all characters, so I will test this out soon.

I believe it's fair and square for Alpha to have legitimate holds so that she has more defensive options.

She slows down like you wouldn't believe!

I wanted this, but Brute (btw, I miss our pissing matches - not), whom I argued this with, says:

Alpha as a character is a flawed designed; yet, in the same breath, he tells me that she was meant to be that way. At first, I ignored this, but after reading the type she falls under, he has a point. But what I took issue with is how he only said that, not how to deal with it! Left to my own vices, I have found ways to do so. However, it doesn't mean I have had an easier time. Even with found methods, I still have trouble. Isn't this how people - including myself, felt facing her AI version in 4 and 5 (Pre-patch .01?)

TBH, she's got a ton of defensive options: if not. how in the world due people notice her defensive stance (with me) when they aren't mindlessly rushing? All of those tools I listed, I use because she has them -- meaning she is able to get around her holding inability. However, regardless of all the defensive tools, most rely on countering her - thus spending hours in the lab if again they don't straight up rush her (which you needn't lab up to do, really!)

So, what you have are the two extremes: Combo and counter-whoring with the latter being the lesser of two evils -imo because you can always try something else as the attacker. Once in combo lockdown ... I'm sorry!

But yes, I'm with you on actual holds since the magic act she does is too long on recovery frames. All someone has to do is mash out . Or, sometimes you get lucky and they evoke a full string ending up recovering longer. Then, that is an opportunity (especially when in BTS); yet, they could still mash as it's universally the fastest attack in the game. But let's not get into nerfing or buffing stuff. She's already had enough happen in that area.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Bayman vs Alpha must be massively in Alpha's disfavor then . As Bayman has countless OHs. If I recall correctly, the H+K special wake-up is unsafe too. So yeah, her current wake-up game is shitty to express it nicely. But something tells me that it's balanced the way it is right now. Remember, every character has their advantages and disadvantages.

Yep! I played a Bayman player with one of my frends watching and coaching him. He said: "OHs kill Alpha! Use them!" And I hate to offend Argentus, but the motherfucking mount spam by Mila! Yet, everyone says BURST and RUSH are her best friends. That maybe, but not everybody is @o Maleficient o either! (I heard he taught Xblades and I've seen him get messed up, too) Btw, M, that is a shoutout, not a diss!

 

[Dillinger]

This is just Speculation but hear me out. Give her a wake up kick three possibilities happen
1.Everybody throws a fit how they cant lock her down and she has a viable guessing game on wake up-100 percent certainty.
2.people will adapt to the changes and actually take advantage of the situations given- 50 Percent.
3.everyone will laugh at alpha and tame this jello devil-0 Percent.

My conclusion- Stop Alpha's Momentum and Knock Her Down!!


Any counter,Air Combo or Throw rewards the player knocking her down. If she had a wake up game at first it would be daunting for new players at release which would be a problem for new players coming in. She should not be a problem for established players when she is on her back.

However,Doa players are taught to use caution rather than reacting to the situation in front of them for the most part.so the wake up game if added would actually rig the game in her favor mentally especially in ambiguous situations in the corner where her wake up state may be difficult to determine and adapt to.(ie Crumple= teleport vs. Face down=possible flip kick).

We all know she is difficult to deal with in the first place and she wont change much. Competitively she is not much of a threat once knocked down but online she is a terror regardless. That's why i say developers shouldn't focus on the changes to load the game up and make it ridiculous but rather to create a game that is balanced for the causal and competitive player seamlessly and allowing for a wake up game for a loaded character that for the most part already has a balanced design all around.(I know what your gonna say) would load the offensive potential in her favor just enough for people to be angry until a patch by that time a cycle in the game will have been well underway.

People already at one point acted like she was the Yun of the game.(Before they re-found Christie)
Alpha does not need to be that moniker again.She is free on wake-up and Every boss character gotta have a weakness. For the sake of the game,keep the wake up game how it is.

P.S. Throwing and pressure should honestly be your focus if your playing against one the possibilities are loaded in your favor regardless of the situation.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

^ Folks are doing that now, so your solution is for naught actually! I said, myself she needn't be loaded with WUKs, but folks have already found that loophole. I find it ironic that the WUKs from everyone else are respected. Theirs can change the game just as much as hers

 

[Dillinger]

I never seen anyone actually actively pressure her after wake up... maybe some have a counter hit set up or two here or there but actively stifle a alpha player on a unteachable knockdown. Where is that tech?? everyone who plays this game is afraid of the situation issue upon wake up to a certain point. number one.
Number two folks might be doing that(what ever exactly that is, you never clarified) but is everybody. The answer is NO... i'm talking about a balancing issue that might not be game changing but at higher levels of play difficult to deal with and on the causal point unappealing. I'm not playing a D!@k measuring contest here. If i am wrong give me reasons, Valid ones.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I never seen anyone actually actively pressure her after wake up... maybe some have a counter hit set up or two here or there but actively stifle a alpha player on a unteachable knockdown. Where is that tech?? everyone who plays this game is afraid of the situation issue upon wake up to a certain point. number one.
Number two folks might be doing that(what ever exactly that is, you never clarified) but is everybody. The answer is NO... i'm talking about a balancing issue that might not be game changing but at higher levels of play difficult to deal with and on the causal point unappealing. I'm not playing a D!@k measuring contest here. If i am wrong give me reasons, Valid ones.

I'm not. Alpha being played against competitive or casually is the easiest character to get fucked up! If Xblades got owned, but was much better after switching to Helena! She gets more respect for her bullshit than Alpha! Now, how is Alpha not balanced? She has to constantly guess out the ass - even with that pretty useless parry! So, let her block, people get pissed because their combos are gone and then those who love to punish, that's gone, too! Yet, taking away her opponents' options are more difficult than people think; yet, you can beat Alpha with your eyes close now!

The OP crap - is just that - CRAP! Other than burst (and people forget most of its damage comes from the third part) Not sure where her buff/nerf list is, but she has more nerfs than buff. Burst got nerfed, but people will hold-spam out the ass and cry cause they don't deserve it! Um, yes you do! If everybody else can throw punish, yet don't do it! I rarely do her strongest throw and people bitch! What?

I feel like it's just the usual hate coming from you! Alpha has to still put forth effort despite the BURST throw; yet, to beat her is seemingly effortless! You're already saying why she shouldn't need anymore; however, the a few chances she has are taken away too easily! Folks just look at her damage output and spaz! There's more to her game than that! Same with Helena. Folks see the windmill shit and believe that's all she is; yet, I poke like nobody's damn business and that's more difficult? Likewise, if I don't straight up bullrush with Alpha!

I'm interested to hear your rebuttal!

 

[Dillinger]

??? You never contested any of my points....im not gonna talk about the other errors this is a discussion not a episode of CNN v. The O'reily report. I give up...

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

??? You never contested any of my points....im not gonna talk about the other errors this is a discussion not a episode of CNN v. The O'reily report. I give up...

Noob, I guess! you're saying she needs no more shit sense she's already unfair; however, she can get fucked up like nobody's business! You're scared more WUKs will give her more options! How is this sense folks make a bee-line for taking away the ones she already has and they aren't that good actually! Maybe you need to play as and against her to understand why this thread was made!

Everybody shoots down Alpha players because we have too much when we don't at all actually!

 

[Dillinger]

You are clearly the most irrational player i have every seen on here. I'm going to say this once...By the way you type and fail to provide a simple argument.Your a scrub. I have a far better alpha than you just by the way you sound and you obviously cannot read. I never said alpha is a unfair character. denoting a concern is different than going on a tangent like you did. Notice how YOU never kept inline with the discussion.

Honestly,Your a downer on this community of players and and post random tech for your own usage then attempt to degrade others by saying your good in the most uninspiring way.Trust me,i will 5-1 you in a first to 5 you mashy online scrub mirror or not (The one cause i would feel sorry for you and give you any type of hope at being good at any type of game.)

My suggestion to you would be,stick to the sidelines we don't need someone like you around here. Goodbye,Stay Free, you "contribution" to a bad reputation that these forums have for not being informative and spastic like your self.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

You are clearly the most irrational player i have every seen on here. I'm going to say this once...By the way you type and fail to provide a simple argument.Your a scrub. I have a far better alpha than you just by the way you sound and you obviously cannot read. I never said alpha is a unfair character. denoting a concern is different than going on a tangent like you did. Notice how YOU never kept inline with the discussion.

Honestly,Your a downer on this community of players and and post random tech for your own usage then attempt to degrade others by saying your good in the most uninspiring way.Trust me,i will 5-1 you in a first to 5 you mashy online scrub mirror or not (The one cause i would feel sorry for you and give you any type of hope at being good at any type of game.)

My suggestion to you would be,stick to the sidelines we don't need someone like you around here. Goodbye,Stay Free, you "contribution" to a bad reputation that these forums have for not being informative and spastic like your self.

I know you! From scrub to scrub then! Ok! I love you too! I still haven't heard your point yet! You never said yes or no to the simple question this thread is asking yourself really. Perhaps you didn't read my first post on this topic. I said: "You're gonna get lots of 'no's' just because!" Then I went on to basically say what I also told you! I guess we're at a stalemate! You basically came with the same kind of post! I'm at a lost too!