Should Team Ninja be forced to only use arcade sticks for future DOA development?

[Gill Hustle]

@ Mr.WAH

My SE's are 360 versions. And KOF13?! Lucky Bastard.

Making the game easier for stick users and harder for pad users isn't going to fix the problem, and it isn't even going to help fix the problem. It's just going to make it a little bit easier to tolerate for a small % of the community, and piss everybody else off.

Meanwhile, your game will still suck. So focus on shit that actually matters instead.

So are you disagreeing with what Sorwah said?

They aren't arguing that "Stick can't be used effectively in DOA.", or that it's a zero-sum that all must play on one hardware over the other. What's being complained about is that the lax buffering window in the game makes it awkward for other hardcore fighting game players who utilize one set of hardware to jump in.

Here's another way to think of what Gill was explaining, "The buffering window for moves and input recognition is too loose. I'd like to see it tightened up in the future. When you do in other games it comes out , but in DOA4 you'll get . This can cause errors in your move selection as instead of getting Hayate's you get Hayate's to appear.

Dead or Alive though isn't the only one to suffer from this buffering issue. Street Fighter has had similar issue because - even the developers have said for that game - that they added "shortcuts" to help pad players with the inaccuracies of the directional pad. You can do Ryu's Shoryuken () by just entering on a stick. However, this causes issues as sometimes a Shoryuken will appear when a Hadouken () was meant by entering a walking forward animation or move that had a forward input then adding the Hadouken motion (:Link:).

Because I've expanded the conversation outside the forum with my SF playing friends.

One said if this followed suit in the next DOA, it would get him really frustrated and he most likely NOT try to play due to the fact like me, he uses a stick for EVERY fighter.

DOA's interface has NEVER alienated pad players because the game only uses 3 buttons. Inputs on the other hand are a big deal, which again has NEVER hurt DOA pad players.

I never had an issue with the game on pad till DOAD and that was cuz I couldn't hit due to the size of the system.

It hurt my game and I was forced to use R shoulder button, something that wasn't natural for me, since even on a 360 pad I could use 2 fingers to hit those buttons.

The only macro I ever used on pad for DOA was :F+P+k: which I used for tag/taunts.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Making the game easier for stick users and harder for pad users isn't going to fix the problem

Be honest, did you read anything other than the title of this thread? It doesn't seem like it.

Who said anything about making the game easier for stick players? Who? Where? You're arguing a point that no one ever made!

Since no one made the argument that using sticks during development would make it easier for stick players, I can't even comprehend what points you're arguing against. How would using sticks during development make it easier for stick players?

How would bringing back Jann Lee's make things easier for stick players?

You're trying to place the blame of bad system design choices where it doesn't belong.

No, I'm not and you would know that if you had actually read any of my posts.

Because difficult or non-difficult input has nothing to do with system design, and because the buffer system is already fucked up enough as it is without tempting fate.

The buffer system was fine in 2U, which came out between 3 and 4.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Personally, for Xbox/360 pad I use A|B|X|Y as ||| Gill. I don't have to worry about triggers or anything. As I can hit all four buttons to do :F+P+k: with just A+B+X+Y (or :F+P+k, with X+Y, with A+X, and with B+Y; all with just a single thumb press.

For DS I had to use B|A|Y|X as ||| since I'm required to have every macro set and I only hit A when I do , :hold+punch+kick: or .

 

[Gill Hustle]

Personally, for Xbox/360 pad I use A|B|X|Y as ||| Gill. I don't have to worry about triggers or anything. As I can hit all four buttons to do :F+P+k: with just A+B+X+Y (or :F+P+k, with X+Y, with A+X, and with B+Y; all with just a single thumb press.

For DS I had to use B|A|Y|X as ||| since I'm required to have every macro set and I only hit A when I do , :hold+punch+kick: or .

WOW!

Now that's some configurations you got there.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I don't use macros basically... unless forced (like 3DS controls).

 

[Rikuto]

Who said anything about making the game easier for stick players? Who? Where? You're arguing a point that no one ever made!

Oh really? How about the first page, right here?

But regarding DOA, I remember talking to someone about not being able to do Hayates' Raijin on stick. He told me that a lot of people preformed it by using both analogs . . . something just didn't seem right about that so that's why I started thinking about this.

This is called "Implication". We use that in the english language to make a person on the opposite side of a conversation have to actually think about the situation rather then explain it to them.

That was early on in the thread. The fact you guys have spun it out of control talking about completely irrelevant shit and keep changing your argument doesn't matter to me. I was, and am still, debating that original point.

 

[Gill Hustle]

That was early on in the thread. The fact you guys have spun it out of control talking about completely irrelevant shit and keep changing your argument doesn't matter to me. I was, and am still, debating that original point.

Fine, I'll take blame for that.

But going back to how Mr. Wah put it , what do you think regarding buffering windows and input recognition?

 

[Rikuto]

I believe the buffer system is a way-too-forgiving and overly-glitchy mess, and there isn't a thing you can ever do to make team ninja ever change that.

They want it loose, it's THE core reason why casuals can pick up and play this game, but not other games.

This isn't the worst thing in the world though, the SYSTEM DESIGN can be fixed to compensate for that. Sitting here and complaining about it isn't going to change anything, and quite frankly its the reason stick and pad users can actually play the same game with relative equality despite inputs.

If it was any other way, you damn well better believe one would have a significant advantage over the other.

I feel like a broken record here, but do you understand why people go out of their way to spend a hundred dollars on a decent fight stick for other games? and do you realize why they spend all that time learning how to use it, despite never being a part of the arcade era?

So they can actually compete.

It is because stick IS better for tighter inputs. It simply is. And the tighter you make the input the better it gets. So whether or not anybody feels like acknowledging this point, it stands.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I wouldn't say it's "complaining" as much as it's just "discussing an idea".

 

[Rikuto]

Well you can discuss the idea until the sun explodes, it still isn't going to change.

It's the most prominent feature that lets a casual even play it.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Oh really? How about the first page, right here?

That has nothing to do with making the game easier to people on sticks. Making the inputs less loose would benefit both pad and stick players in terms of accuracy.

The fact you guys have spun it out of control talking about completely irrelevant shit and keep changing your argument doesn't matter to me. I was, and am still, debating that original point.

The argument wasn't changed, it had to be clarified because people kept missing the point. Here's the OP minus the SF example:

Well for one, those of us lucky to play DOA1 and DOA2 as arcade games were a little annoyed at the changes to the game after DOA2 came home to console and onward. Most notably the counter system and also I noticed while playing DOA++, you have to hit :F+P+k: to escape multi throws. As opposed to just .

This was most likely due to the fact that TN was using pads for the console versions of DOA2 and up as opposed to arcade sticks, seeing as how a person had to be "Hardcore" to own one.

So I guess what I'm getting at is if the devs use Sticks with DOA's original set up set up (No button macros!) on an arcade stick, the game could get more of it's old skool feel back.

I'd like to say more, but I don't want eyes glazing over so I'll wait for responses.

Gill is talking about how some portions of the game were simplified for the home iteration, how they were trying to appeal more to the casual player. This continued past the controls in future games. Gill's point was always to have Team Ninja try and appeal to a more hardcore player. Sure, most hardcore DOA players don't play on a stick and I sure don't.

One of the bad items in DOA3 is how loose the inputs are, wouldn't it benefit both pad and stick players to have more precise inputs like in DOA2/LE/H/U?

You've been arguing for a 3-point parry and 6-point double-direction hold system for a future DOA game. The whole reason TN originally stopped with the double-direction holds going from DOA2 arcade to home was because of the pad and to appeal to casual players. To give TN the mindset that they're trying to appeal to hardcore players by making them use sticks in development would make such an outcome more likely. This doesn't benefit players with sticks over ones with pads.

 

[grap3fruitman]

It's the most prominent feature that lets a casual even play it.

Were casuals unable to play DOA2? If anything it's the most successful of all the DOA games and it had fairly tight inputs.

 

[Gill Hustle]

I feel like a broken record here, but do you understand why people go out of their way to spend a hundred dollars on a decent fight stick for other games? and do you realize why they spend all that time learning how to use it, despite never being a part of the arcade era?

So they can actually compete.

It is because stick IS better for tighter inputs. It simply is. And the tighter you make the input the better it gets. So whether or not anybody feels like acknowledging this point, it stands.

. . . Um yeah I do know why people purchase sticks .

Tighter inputs ARE a major part, but button alignments shouldn't be overlooked either.

Maybe your too young to remember playing SF2 on SNES, but that pad was a nightmare for people who used characters that required pressing or for special moves.

Later Capcom changed it so you only needed to hit 2 of the different attacks to help console players, but even with the change it wasn't as precise due to the pads design.

Tekken on the other hand was developed on Playstation hardware (System 11?) and since SONY and Namco were so tight all those years, I wouldn't be surprised if they had input with Sony regarding controllers. (Sounds plausible and somewhat familiar)

Speaking of which, I NEVER played Tekken in the arcade till T3 and even though I was a stick player, I would bring my PS pad to play T5R in our local arcade.

It wasn't till T6 that I switched to stick due to the 360 having an inferior pad compared to the Ps3.

In any case I'm glad we kinda agree in some sense regarding DOA.

And like Mr. Wah said , this is healthy discussion/debate.

I was a little hyped at the impression a lot of you made at DID on TN and figured if we could be unanimous in some aspects they could carry over to Japan.

Just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Rikuto]

Were casuals unable to play DOA2? If anything it's the most successful of all the DOA games and it had fairly tight inputs.

Christ, that stupid game.

DOA 2 had a million and one features no other fighting game had when it came out, all of them contributing to its success. It continued to have success because it kept being re-released with updates and it already had an established following.

When ultimate hit, it even had ONLINE PLAY *gasp*.

Yea, the game can sell with tighter controls, but that doesn't change the fact that TN isn't going to budge on it.

Let me ask you something though, if you make the command for a special move 46f+p+k instead of 6f+k, how the hell is that improving the game?

Do you really think that's going to be the deciding factor in a match between me and perfect legend?

No, it won't. So it's a pointless change.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Christ, that stupid game.

Let me ask you something though, if you make the command for a special move :F+P+k: instead of :F+P+k:, how the hell is that improving the game?

Do you really think that's going to be the deciding factor in a match between me and perfect legend?

No, it won't. So it's a pointless change.

I edited your post with icons cuz I think this is what you meant to say.

But if the motion were changed as how they are described above, you could use the second command more offensively since it could be inputted in between a forward dash. Where as the first would be easier from a defensive position.

I think Allan Paris said earlier that he still did DOA2 inputs for characters whose motions were changed like and multi throws. I do the same so from a gameplay perspective these don't make any difference since I can still get the full throw the same as someone using the new commands.

While it would prefer the old commands so I didn't feel like I was playing "Anime Fighter X" MY overall concern still is buffering and input delay.

 

[Rikuto]

Be not concerned with the buffering system.

Just accept it and move on. Wishful thinking drives people mad with this game.

 

[virtuaPAI]

-Trying to get Team Ninja to have an Advanced player mindset is not going to happen through their means alone. The "fighting game expert" on their team, Shimbori-san, didn't hold a candle to anyone of us. Shimbori-san plays at an above average level, but it is not good enough when you want to take the game to its highest level. Team Ninja(Shimbori-san) need to keep their promise, and continue to have meaningful exchanges between the American player base and themselves. Tapping players like us is the only way for the new Team Ninja to gain an understanding of what it takes to create a good Doa.

-I agree with Rikuto. The buffering system can be tightened up, however, with a system design change, the buffering system will no longer be an issue. Grap3, I don't feel Doa3's buffering system was that bad. Only needed minor tweaking. In fact, what I think missing from Doa3, are those missing commands from Doa2. Doa2 had so many revisions that its final product made complete sense . Double direction holds and parrys will stop accidental holds(while forcing players to commit to a hold), and add another frame to the execution of the hold. This also happened to those moves that had those extra commands. In frame tight situations, a player needed to know how to buffer those commands. Especially with those combo throws and just frame linking/escaping.

 

[Berzerk!]

Interesting. When I use pad, I adapted to the default controls, using the right trigger for but use my thumb across

This has worked fine, giving me access to every move. When I started playing VF more seriously, which requires :F+P+k: this became too awkward on pad and I changed to stick.

After a period of adjustment I could play so much better on stick, so on the occasion I went back to DOA I would try to relearn on stick and it was noticeably different in feel than on pad, and it is likely to be the looseness of inputs that is the cause.

It's certainly better and more accurate for a lot of things such as SEing, but if I want to walk, then hit a diagonal, there are some input quirks that read the moves as standing instead of crouching and such.

There's no reason they can't fix this while keeping the game accessible for pad. And I would agree with the proposition of the topic, they should make sure that this works well first as the serious competitive fighting community will determine the reputation of the game.

 

[Hurricane Rev]

I think Team Ninja should use a Pad and an Arcade stick when it comes to DOA development but for me, I would play the next DOA game with an Arcade stick. The pad isn't really useful than an arcade stick when it comes to fighting games because with Pad, you are pretty much limited to doing certain things, where as a stick, you can do more things on it that you could not do with a pad. DOA might be easier to play with a pad but I believe that Arcade sticks allows you to make less mistakes than using a Pad

 

[grap3fruitman]

Grap3, have you tried playing DOAU2 (stick) then going back to DOA4?

I'm trying to play 2U on my TE right now and it's quite difficult adjusting. Granted, I'm not a stick player in any game to begin with so I still have that hill to climb. I did try DOA2 in the arcades a handful of times in my life and I'm having just as awkward a time now as I did then, haha. I have tried 4 with a stick a few weeks back when Kobayashi and I played some games for shits and giggles at a local gathering. It was still awkward then, even in 4.