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What would "Hold Counters" do to DOA's gameplay (positives/negatives)?

JannLeeVsLaw

JannLeeVsLaw

Member
In case it's unclear, by a "Hold Counter" I mean being able to hold your opponents defensive hold.
eg.
Fighter A does a mid punch, Fighter B catches this strike with a defensive hold, but just before Fighter B's defensive hold hits Fighter A catches the defensive hold with their own defensive hold, effectively countering the hold.

The closest thing I can think of to this in another game is Tekken's "chickening" of reversals. Since in DOA most defensive holds have a strike like animation (punch or kick) I wondered how the gameplay would change if same defensive hold mechanics (high punch & kick, mid punch, mid kick, low punch & kick) could be used against defensive holds themselves. I realise that this would create a sort of infinite loop where both fighters can continuously keep defensive holding each other. So my thoughts were that either the timing would get increasingly tighter or there would be a cap on how many could be done in a row.

In my opinion this would make defensive holds a lot more riskier since the reward would be much less guaranteed, and they wouldn't be used as much which I don't think is good because I love the idea of defensive holds! I'm curious to what other people think about this so looking forward to some feedback, both positive and negative.
 
Murakame

Murakame

Active Member
I think it wouldn't be so bad if they removed low counter out of stun. The only reason people low counter out of stun at the moment is because they want to shit on the triangle system. I can guarantee you 100% of the players countering low are not doing it to catch a low. To balance this just make a rule like this: Low hits can only initiate, not extend a stun. Any time a low hit is used during stun it will cause a knockdown. Who knows with a proper ground game maybe some characters can thrive off of these knockdowns. This would reduce the value of low throws though so idk...

EDIT: or they could go the far superior route of cutting down the stun threshold, and slightly increasing damage on moves. I'm thinking DOA 2U / 3 threshold levels. Come to think about it the damage levels were just fine in those games. What made them deviate from it?
 
D

dawnbringer

Active Member
FlamingMuffin said:
Buy why should they? Your opponent guessed (or reacted) to your attack correctly and as such, is rewarded for it.
Click to expand...

To reward offensive player for knowing (understanding correctly) his opponent will take a guess. It (probably) allows one to attack if able instead of being afraid to attack due to this knowledge. If you do high punch and they counter it, there's little guessing, because it is a high punch hold.
 
Nightpup

Nightpup

Well-Known Member
dawnbringer said:
To reward offensive player for knowing (understanding correctly) his opponent will take a guess. It (probably) allows one to attack if able instead of being afraid to attack due to this knowledge. If you do high punch and they counter it, there's little guessing, because it is a high punch hold.
Click to expand...
You have to guess they will hold in the first place. If not then you just went poke -> high hold and you'll get thrown for that. It's a convoluted concept.
 
CyberEvil

CyberEvil

Master Ninja
Staff member
Administrator
Premium Donor
Um...if somebody does a defensive hold it's because they were attacked...meaning their opponent is in startup, active, or recovery frames...meaning the opponent can't hold themselves until the animation ends or they're struck...

I think there's a major problem with your idea here unless you simply mean that once you are held you can then spam out another defensive hold after the fact, which is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea. I don't mean to be rude or condescending here but I'm not sure you thought this one through at all.
 
grap3fruitman

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I like that people are openly talking about this and I'm shocked that the discussion hasn't turned for the worst yet. Anyway, DOA's hold system is a mess and I don't think adding things on top of the mess is the right way to go. Cleaning up the mess by toning down how often we see holds and how often they can be performed I feel is the best way to.
 
SilverKhaos

SilverKhaos

Active Member
Could work, and would definitely be a good way to show good players. If two players were good enough, they'd have a "volleyball" match of counters, a Counter Clash, if you will, until either one slipped up, or they broke off to attempt a different approach with their offense.

That'd be awesome, actually. That's even closer to being like an actual fight.
 
SilverKhaos

SilverKhaos

Active Member
CyberEvil said:
Um...if somebody does a defensive hold it's because they were attacked...meaning their opponent is in startup, active, or recovery frames...meaning the opponent can't hold themselves until the animation ends or they're struck...

I think there's a major problem with your idea here unless you simply mean that once you are held you can then spam out another defensive hold after the fact, which is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea. I don't mean to be rude or condescending here but I'm not sure you thought this one through at all.
Click to expand...

Well, the way they could make it work is if you were able to break out of holds/grabs right during the beginning of it, the first few frames of animation giving you a chance to break out of it. And in this case, breaking out would result in a counterattack. Then breaking out of that counterattack with another counterattack and so on and so forth until one of the players loses the struggle.
 
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