What would you change about DOA?

[d3v]

Okay, here is the issue.

I mentioned I did not like something.

The main response I keep getting is "well stop losing to it/learn to overcome it".

Not once did I ever say I had trouble getting around it or overcoming it. By the very nature of what i'm griping about, its going to happen if I EVER get hit. And when I get good enough to start perfecting people, I stop playing, because its not fun anymore.

Now. More on topic.

You said "Fighting games reward those who take time to practice and learn the game". Which should be true, to an EXTENT. But that should not be ALL that it rewards. The game should also reward those who are good at FIGHTING. Hence why when holds are the best option, it makes for a better fighter, because its a struggle the entire time (as fights are wont to be). No training wheels holding your hand bs by holding the opponent down/up for you to wail on. You gotta outmaneuver your opponent and work for your damage, and I LOVE that, because THATS A FIGHT. There's no tension, or challenge with juggles. Its just free and easy damage. That should not even be a THING in fighting games.

So to clarify. Being good at juggles/comboing does not mean you are good at fighting, and its the LATTER skill that should be rewarded over the former, at least in fighting games.

I know people don't like me saying this, but its true. Being good at combos/juggles simply means you are good at quick time events, as thats EXACTLY what they are.

Now, if you could counter out of any juggle/combo, I wouldn't care, because then the focus would be back on actual fighting skill, not just memorizing combos. But its the fact that you CAN'T, that takes the fight out of fighting games. Which is sadly, how many in the FGC prefer it, apparently.

Maximizing your damage should mean "Punish with the strongest possible attack", not "Get to do 10-30 attacks in a row without possibility of retaliation." You should get ONE free hit as a punisher, then thats it, back to working for your damage. because fighting games are supposed to be about fighting each other, not just "who can land their long combo first". Its borderline turn-based when you fight people who rely exclusively on juggles.

Now, the key difference here, is that my views apply mainly to those who enjoy fighting. To those only concerned with getting a win, however, not so much.

Apologies that this post rambles on, I didn't sleep last night.

Except the fighting does happen, it happens before you get hit, during the NEUTRAL GAME.

The problem here is that every scrub from New York to Hawaii see's only combos and people getting comboed after a hit. What they don't realize that a good fight is all about working to get in (or conversely, to keep the other guy out).

What scrubs also don't realize is that combos, especially long damaging ones, actually emphasize the neutral game. Why? Because it forces the player to get better in the neutral game so that they don't get hit and punished. It means learning to take less risks and play as safe as possible, learning to cover all your openings. (On a related note, this is why glitches that lead to advanced movement tech such as KBD, RSB, etc. are always welcome - since they add more tools to keep players safe). You are forced to learn to not get hit, simply because there's no easy way out once you get hit.

The problem is that scrubs want to simply wail away with their fanciest moves looking flashy and shit. The thing is, fancy doesn't win you matches, flashy doesn't win you matches, being safe, efficient and at times boring does.

Here's a little anecdote, from a combo heavy, touch of death game. I recently had the chance to get to watch EVO2012 Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 champion Ryan Ramirez play and practice in person. Now UMvC3, as everyone knows, is very much a touch of death game (like its predecessor). What is it that Makes FChamp so good? It's the fact that he's way better at the neutral game than most other players. Ryan will literally make you pay (in life) before you can get in on him. I've seen players lose characters just trying to get the jump on him without him even trying to combo, just controlling the space in front of him.

Even more amazing is how he practices. You'd think that the top UMvC3 player would do combo videos every time in training mode. But instead, he practices the most basic things, movement, setups, etc. I've seen him spend close to an hour doing nothing but forward and backward wavedashes, then the next 30 or so minutes doing safe landings.

The same can be said of FChamps biggest rival, the east coasts PDP|ChrisG, who's Morrigan/Doom team emphasizes the neutral game even more with it's ability to keep his opponent out at the other end of the screen. This is what makes champions, not combos, not flashiness, but a good, strong neutral game.

This brings us back do DOA, specifically the much maligned (and deservedly so) DOA4. Why practice the neutral game when in DOA4, it's better to simply get hit and hold out of it? Why practice when you realize that the reward is so low because there's a "get out of jail and put the other guy in it free" card that the other player can play even if you are better in the neutral game? This is exactly why I (and a few other folks, including some other FSD members) call the idea "ass backwards."

 

[SilverKhaos]

The problem is that scrubs want to simply wail away with their fanciest moves looking flashy and shit. The thing is, fancy doesn't win you matches, flashy doesn't win you matches, being safe, efficient and at times boring does.

That right there, is my entire point. I win purely through fundamentals and outmaneuvering. Which is why its so disappointing/annoying to see people trying to just mash out combos all the time. If they took juggles/combos out, people would be forced to actually learn how to fight instead of trying to rely on the free damage off of juggles.

 

[d3v]

That right there, is my entire point. I win purely through fundamentals and outmaneuvering. Which is why its so disappointing/annoying to see people trying to just mash out combos all the time. If they took juggles/combos out, people would be forced to actually learn how to fight instead of trying to rely on the free damage off of juggles.

That damage isn't free when the other guy has to earn it, via winning in the neutral game.

 

[Brute]

• Tame the ridiculous, apparently sentient boob physics.
• Re-add character-specific music themes. The stage ones don't have the same effect.
• Add Leon
• Make it so that if you're in the air, a low attack will never knock you out of it. This one bugs me a lot, as it's hard to crush when it's so inconsistent
• Make certain inputs easier (see: Kokoro's throw and half of Akira's move list)
• Remove unblockable attacks
• Give all characters equal number of costumes
• Remove slow-escaping

 

[Raansu]

That right there, is my entire point. I win purely through fundamentals and outmaneuvering. Which is why its so disappointing/annoying to see people trying to just mash out combos all the time. If they took juggles/combos out, people would be forced to actually learn how to fight instead of trying to rely on the free damage off of juggles.

See, here's the thing, you don't win. You are trying to play the random guessing game (DoA4) while everyone else is playing chess.

Removing juggles/combos isn't going to fix anything when you still consistently lose in the neutral game anyways.

 

[Brute]

People either complain "too much combo memorization it's boring" or "it's too random."

IMO, every good fighter relies on both. All require guessing. If you can't anticipate/guess what you're opponent is going to do, you're always dead. You can't always react flawlessly. That said, if it was strictly anticipating, there would be no need for different characters as it would be a "strike vs hold vs throw" RPS game every time. It needs a balance, so that you integrate your skill/move memorization with the mind games of anticipating your opponent.

 

[Raansu]

People either complain "too much combo memorization it's boring" or "it's too random."

IMO, every good fighter relies on both. All require guessing. If you can't anticipate/guess what you're opponent is going to do, you're always dead. You can't always react flawlessly. That said, if it was strictly anticipating, there would be no need for different characters as it would be a "strike vs hold vs throw" RPS game every time. It needs a balance, so that you integrate your skill/move memorization with the mind games of anticipating your opponent.

Ya that's fine at neutral, that's how neutral is which is why it's neutral. It's a different story after you get hit though.

 

[DR2K]

That right there, is my entire point. I win purely through fundamentals and outmaneuvering. Which is why its so disappointing/annoying to see people trying to just mash out combos all the time. If they took juggles/combos out, people would be forced to actually learn how to fight instead of trying to rely on the free damage off of juggles.

Nah, they'd just lose the reward and purpose to better themselves. It's very apparant that a majority of players online are stuck in a hurdle of "DOA4" that you're in.

 

[Brute]

Ya that's fine at neutral, that's how neutral is which is why it's neutral. It's a different story after you get hit though.

If you can't break stuns, everyone will just memorize their single, fastest stun attack (mixing in a crush), and then just proceed with their super-memorized combo, which they would do each and every time. All you'd have to do is bait someone into getting struck by one stun, then go all-out with your highest damage-dealing combo without fear of retaliation. That's not interesting, and it doesn't emphasize skill or mind games. It throws the "balance" too far into memorization and strays too far from mind games.

If you can break, stuns it literally turns into a contest of button mashing (can you wiggle shit fast enough to recover) which in my opinion is the worst possible route you can go.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[d3v]

People misuse the term "mind games" way too much. Mind games isn't just high-low mixups, or baiting. Mind games is way more than that. Y'all should read Sirlin's book, specifically the chapters that apply Sun-Tzu's Art Of War to competitive gaming.

If you can't break stuns, everyone will just memorize their single, fastest stun attack (mixing in a crush), and then just proceed with their super-memorized combo, which they would do each and every time. All you'd have to do is bait someone into getting struck by one stun, then go all-out with your highest damage-dealing combo without fear of retaliation. That's not interesting, and it doesn't emphasize skill or mind games. It throws the "balance" too far into memorization and strays too far from mind games.

If you can break, stuns it literally turns into a contest of button mashing (can you wiggle shit fast enough to recover) which in my opinion is the worst possible route you can go.

That's how I see it, anyway.

But if you know what move their going to use, then you can counter it. That there is Yomi, specifically the first layer of yomi (you knew what he would do). The neutral game just builds from there, since there's the 2nd level (he knew that you knew) and the 3rd level (you know that he knows that you know what he will do). It's this dynamic that the nuetral game is built on.

 

[Brute]

People misuse the term "mind games" way too much. Mind games isn't just high-low mixups, or baiting. Mind games is way more than that.

Yeah...

But if you know what move their going to use, then you can counter it. That there is Yomi, specifically the first layer of yomi (you knew what he would do). The neutral game just builds from there, since there's the 2nd level (he knew that you knew) and the 3rd level (you know that he knows that you know what he will do). It's this dynamic that the nuetral game is built on.

In economic game theory it's referred to as common knowledge, and breaking it is foundation of the term "strategy."

 

[JKe SMoker]

See, here's the thing, you don't win. You are trying to play the random guessing game (DoA4) while everyone else is playing chess.

Top players in DOA4 were consistent. Can you explain how that happens in a random game?

 

[Raansu]

Top players in DOA4 were consistent. Can you explain how that happens in a random game?

Top 3 were different almost every tournament. Wouldn't really call that consistent, and even top players agree that DoA4 was random trash.(Except maybe Manny, but he likes random BS.)

 

[JKe SMoker]

Top 3 were different almost every tournament. Wouldn't really call that consistent, and even top players agree that DoA4 was random trash.(Except maybe Manny, but he likes random BS.)

Manny was the champion though. Your saying that the person who took that "random game" and won the most money on it by getting 1st in several tournaments just happened to be amazing at rock paper scissors?

Only when the skill-levels were very close the game would get kinda random but that goes for any game. Anyways DOA4-bashing is getting kinda old and I will always fall back on the consistency of players like MASTER to show that it's not as random as people like you claim it is.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

This brings us back do DOA, specifically the much maligned (and deservedly so) DOA4. Why practice the neutral game when in DOA4, it's better to simply get hit and hold out of it? Why practice when you realize that the reward is so low because there's a "get out of jail and put the other guy in it free" card that the other player can play even if you are better in the neutral game? This is exactly why I (and a few other folks, including some other FSD members) call the idea "ass backwards."

​

To the extent to which this was true, it was a problem. But that's hardly a necessary element of the game if you remove uninterrupted combos. As it is, DOA5 basically continues the decision making of the presumed "neutral game" longer and further into the fight, but essentially makes the decisions harder and more costly for the defender and easier to make for the attacker. That's actually really excellent game design itself. The more time spent not making decisions is time making the game less strategic.​

IMO, every good fighter relies on both. All require guessing. If you can't anticipate/guess what you're opponent is going to do, you're always dead. You can't always react flawlessly. That said, if it was strictly anticipating, there would be no need for different characters as it would be a "strike vs hold vs throw" RPS game every time. It needs a balance, so that you integrate your skill/move memorization with the mind games of anticipating your opponent.

​

Except, right now, all of the decisions I make are relative to my character's ability to perform them at any moment as defined by her strings and recovery times. The instant I get them up in the air, brain goes off.​

See, here's the thing, you don't win. You are trying to play the random guessing game (DoA4) while everyone else is playing chess.

​

Chess, a game well known for its ability to take away your opponent's ability to act at all, rather than diminish the quality of their decisions.​

 

[Brute]

(Except maybe Manny, but he likes random BS.)

Might not wanna diss a guy unless you can beat him.

I agree, DOA4 had serious flaws. But, Master was (arguably) the best at it. If it were all random, one guy couldn't keep doing that. There was a system and he mastered (hurr) it. Calling it "random" to justify why you couldn't play it like he did doesn't put you in some elitist "pro" category.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

Might not wanna diss a guy unless you can beat him.

The bloodletting is more entertaining, even when incorrect.

 

[DR2K]

Top players in DOA4 were consistent. Can you explain how that happens in a random game?

Same 10 people playing it didn't help change things up.

 

[Raansu]

Manny was the champion though. Your saying that the person who took that "random game" and won the most money on it by getting 1st in several tournaments just happened to be amazing at rock paper scissors?

Only when the skill-levels were very close the game would get kinda random but that goes for any game. Anyways DOA4-bashing is getting kinda old and I will always fall back on the consistency of players like MASTER to show that it's not as random as people like you claim it is.

MASTER really wasn't all that consistent. He lost pretty much every major for DoA4. He was only really successful in CGS. Not saying he's bad, he's much better than me, but still, fact is he wasn't all that consistent at tournaments.

Might not wanna diss a guy unless you can beat him.

I agree, DOA4 had serious flaws. But, Master was (arguably) the best at it. If it were all random, one guy couldn't keep doing that. There was a system and he mastered (hurr) it. Calling it "random" to justify why you couldn't play it like he did doesn't put you in some elitist "pro" category.

I never claimed he was bad nor claimed I was better than him. I simply stated that he likes that random BS from DoA4. He said so himself during the whole DoA Champions diary crap from TN promoting the 3DS game that he likes the fact that nothing is guaranteed.

I'm also not trying to justify anything. DoA4 was a random game. The entire game was built around 50/50's. There was nothing to work towards in DoA4, there was no way to improve in that game. You were either good at guessing or you weren't, simple as that. DoA5, while still having some flaws, at least has tools you can work with to improve your game. DoA4 it was you either guessed right or you guessed wrong, there wasn't any real tools to work with. It was random, and pretty much every top player and average player will agree with that.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

boring wins,but fancy sells.I don't think any new player has seen Freddie on MK9 spam projectiles and think "that's a game I want to try!" no ones expecting DOA to pull in a COD size fanbase,but removing the juggles/fancy stuff would destroy the game if all people ever saw was a bunch of poking.this sounds more like it belongs in that old samurai game I never got to play,but not DOA.