Why do so many people dislike the VF cast?

Argentus

Well-Known Member
There is no flaw when that's particularly visionary on your "view." Viewing is mostly just what you see and how you portray things to what you see but that is in general not an actual true answer to the situation. The twerky so called movements does not make them any better at the game.

While I respect your opinion, how are these issues affecting you as a player when none of it is the least bit threatening. Alright, let's assume and play along that I said they have jerky and twerky movements...and what..I don't see how it's a problem, it's not like they have special powers to beat you with magic tricks. VF characters are not that special. I treat them the same as a DOA character. Get punished for making a mistake.
Its mostly a difference in aesthetics and combat rhythm when it comes down to it I suppose.
I think that what "framey" means is that, while the games RUNS at 60 fps, the characters aren't always animating like that. So, a move may TAKE 12 frames to complete from start to finish, but it may only have, say, 8 frames of animation. All Street Fighter games run at 60 fps on arcade, but the amount of animated frames for a move usually increases with each new game because of fster tech. SFIII has way smoother animations than SFII, even though they both run at the same speed. And I really hope I know what I'm talking about.

So that's what I think people mean when they say the VF animations feel choppy, in a sense, but this isn't a 2D game so it works very differently from sprites. Since it's a 3D animation, it should have animation at every frame filled in. And this is getting into territory I'm not entirely familiar with, but it could be the VF animations do have less key frames. By key frame I mean the major points in the animation.

Imagine animating a ball to move around in a circle in one second, at 60fps. If you animated every frame of that, there should be 60 spots the ball will move over and these form a circle. If, however, you use less dots to make the circle, it looks less circular and more angular. The ball can only move in a straight line, so the more spots you assign it to move over as it travels, the smoother it looks. If it had only had 4 spots, the ball would just move in a square shape.

If a move took 26 frames to execute, but only had 4 key frames, it would look stiff. It doesn't change the speed of the move, just how it looks. At least that's what I think they mean. I really need to sit down and look at the animations to really figure if this is true for the VFers.
This is what I meant by the VF have no "recoil" to their moves. There's no acceleration or deceleration, there's just stop and go with them, which just clashes with the overall DOA system.

It'd be like if Skull girls were in MVC2. Technically all the frames could be the same but the animation is contrasting so drastically that it throws things off for some people.

Better example. The vfs grapples are much more fluidly animated than their strikes. Its the same thing there.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
A noticeable frame by frame difference is the addition of Morrigan in Capcom vs SNK 2. That one is exceptionally reasonable since it's literally pasted sprites from another game.

The VF characters at the moment have a *DOA* model. The attacks were adjusted according by Team NINJA, all Yu Suzuku did was give them the entire movelist and Team Ninja did the editing and speed animation to make it fit the game. All the twerky so called movements were done by Team NINJA themselves. In a sense, they are treated as DOA characters until a expiration date via the contract they made if it gets renewed or not with Sega and it's services for SEGA AM2 with the arcades.

There really is nothing to complain about except Sarah match ups as grapplers when that was entirely by Team NINJA. I will respect your opinion though don't get me wrong. I still do not see how it's a case affecting you as a player.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
A noticeable frame by frame difference is the addition of Morrigan in Capcom vs SNK 2. That one is exceptionally reasonable since it's literally pasted sprites from another game.

The VF characters have a *DOA* model. The attacks were adjusted according by Team NINJA, all Yu Suzuku did was give them the entire movelist and Team Ninja did the editing and speed animation to make it fit the game. All the twerky so called movements were done by Team NINJA themselves. In a sense, they are treated as DOA characters until a expiration date via the contract they made if it gets renewed or not with Sega and it's services for SEGA AM2 with the arcades.

There really is nothing to complain about except Sarah match ups as grapplers when that was entirely by Team NINJA. I will respect your opinion though don't get me wrong. I still do not see how it's a case affecting you as a player.
Matchups don't matter here, is my point. Not everything is about whether you've won or lost. Forget all that for a moment.

The issue is that in trying to keep the feel of the vf characters, they feel and look out of place on DOA gameplay. Granted they did a good job and the best they could but at the end of the day the vfs just move in a completely different manner from DOA. Although then again vf itself is slightly slower so I think its mostly just a matter of compatibility. Trying to speed up the vf attacks to match DOA speeds led to disproportionate animations.

Honestly I'm guessing at the why's and how's but it still stands they move at a different rhythm from DOA which is why I personally don't like them.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
And yet these different rhythm somehow sparked a reason of a dislike because.... it was sped up? They did an excellent job minus the terrible pasted voice clips.

If Yu Suzuku did the editing, then you would have "disproportionate" animations and I rather not see him do it. If he did it, I would of actually agreed with you. Regardless, they are not special. Why is this an issue. They have no special catering dominance.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
The discussion is real, lol.

Giving my 2 cents to the OP's question:

I think the VF characters are not hated by their appearance, voice or moveset per se, rather I think that a majority of the DOA community doesn't even bother to learn one or more of the four VF characters that were implemented in DOA. So inexperience against VF characters may lead many people to hate them: They don't know the match-up, they don't know what's unsafe or even their movestrings, they don't know their advantages and weaknesses, and so on. In conclusion, I believe the origin of their hate towards VF characters lies in the fact that most people don't know how to play with or against them. It's easy to hate a character if you don't know how to play against them.

Many people I've encountered sleep on the VF characters in DOA, imo. This may be due to the relative trickier use of these characters, plus they require fast fingers and fast reaction times. From my point of view, the VF characters fit very well in DOA thanks to the similar fighting mechanics shared between VF and DOA. Although I admit the voices sound clunky and robot-like, this is not a problem for me since that's the way I know them from VF! :)

My advice for the people who have never tried VF characters in DOA and don't like them very much would be: Give them at least one chance. You may find it an enlightening experience. Personally I think Jacky and Akira are the most fun to use, but Pai and Sarah are pretty cool too, in my opinion. Akira is very unique and might be worth a pick-up if you main Kokoro, and if you want to challenge yourself with difficult input execution. Jacky might be fun if you play Jann Lee and want to try a new variation of Jeet Kune Do. Sarah and Pai are good if you like fast characters.

Of course, all of this is my opinion but I think this is the main reason why the VF characters are being looked down upon so much.
 

ninemil

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Yeah what they said. They don't fit at all. and their animations don't mesh well at all. Seeing them move in DOA is like a scene out of space jam or roger rabbit. It throws off all the rhythm when one character doesn't move the same way as the rest.
If a move took 26 frames to execute, but only had 4 key frames, it would look stiff. It doesn't change the speed of the move, just how it looks.
They can twitch and jerk like a 2d sprite with no recoil or weight and its jarring to see. DOA movements are more rhythmic and fluid.
As for actually playing them, as I say - I have no issues with their move sets or their frame data. Characters like Akira and Jacky are a pleasure to fight, for the challenge and the differing styles. But they look, move, and sound completely wrong for the DoA aesthetic. They might have had work to incorporate them, if that's what the developers claim, but they didn't do enough work. Stylistically they stick out like a sore thumb, and that's jarring, and distracting.
 

ninemil

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
(ties into the fact that I absolutely detest guest characters in any game. I can forgive Rachel and Momiji, because Gaiden and DoA are so tightly wound anyway, but if they were to pull, say, Lu Bu or Xingcai - big fucking no no.)
 

DestructionBomb

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Standard Donor
(ties into the fact that I absolutely detest guest characters in any game. I can forgive Rachel and Momiji, because Gaiden and DoA are so tightly wound anyway, but if they were to pull, say, Lu Bu or Xingcai - big fucking no no.)

Lu Bu or any of the DW wouldn't fit. You'd have to revise an entire movelist for them. I would rather have guest characters than a crossover game that has a high probability of being unbalanced and totally not tournament worthy.

Guest characters? Absolutely. Because "technically" speaking, they are *new* characters to the roster. Guest characters or not, it doesn't matter who joins because that particular character has to respect the mechanic of the game. It's just that individuals cater to a certain other appeal and choose not to accept it. Which is alright, it's people's pick of taste, but it's genuine to know that guest characters in general do not cause a game mechanic to go sham. People should only go against Guest characters if they do "not" respect the mechanic the guest character was introduced to. The VF characters have to respect DOA's mechanic. They have no choice, and they've been doing rather well from the looks of it. If they didn't play by the mechanics, they would of been banned and I wouldn't be posting here in the first place.
 
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Star Outlaw

Member
As for actually playing them, as I say - I have no issues with their move sets or their frame data. Characters like Akira and Jacky are a pleasure to fight, for the challenge and the differing styles. But they look, move, and sound completely wrong for the DoA aesthetic. They might have had work to incorporate them, if that's what the developers claim, but they didn't do enough work. Stylistically they stick out like a sore thumb, and that's jarring, and distracting.
I understand what you mean by move and sound, but I'm genuinely curious how the VFers "look" out of place too. I can't really find any design element about them that's really that much different from the DOA cast in terms of character design. It doesn't seem like there's anything about their costumes/models/faces that isn't shared by at least one other DOA character.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
If anything, people in the past assumed they used Jann Lee's base model to create DOA Akira. I wouldn't be surprised at all with the hinting of Marie Rose > Honoka. Editing the features, bust, jaw line, face, size etc. None of this surprises me at all.
 

ninemil

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I understand what you mean by move and sound, but I'm genuinely curious how the VFers "look" out of place too.
Because of everything we've already discussed? Poorly recorded VA, with shitty out-of-place sound effects? Stoic animation with low keyframes and snappy movement? Because of their proportions, and overtly low-poly design? They just look wrong *shrugs* You can let bias blind you, or you can accept that there's enough of us with a problem for that problem to be real.
 

Star Outlaw

Member
Because of everything we've already discussed? Poorly recorded VA, with shitty out-of-place sound effects? Stoic animation with low keyframes and snappy movement? Because of their proportions, and overtly low-poly design? They just look wrong *shrugs* You can let bias blind you, or you can accept that there's enough of us with a problem for that problem to be real.
I already know about the voices and the animations, I was asking about how they "look," and I guess you answered that with low poly count, but that doesn't make sense to me since the models used for the VF characters were clearly remade for DOA5. There should be no reason for something to be wrong with the character models. Seriously, just compare their character models to the the other DOA characters. I can hear the quality of the voices and sound effects, and I can kind of see what you mean about the animations, but I'm really not being biased when I say I can't see anything wrong with how their proportioned or the polygon count. You're going to have to be more specific and/or use a screenshot to convince me. Their faces look normal, it's not like any of them are too tall or short or fat or skinny or deformed. Really trying to see what you're seeing but it's not easy.

For me, Rachel is the one who doesn't "look" like she fits because of her general character design. I realize that Ninja Gaiden shares its universe with DOA, but I still think it's a lot more believable that DOA shares a universe with Virtua Fighter than with Gaiden. I still feel like the VFers fit into the cast a lot better than Rachel does because they're martial artists and not demon slayers. I'm okay with Momiji because the game is already full of ninjas and I think she's cool, but even then I feel like their ninja magic kind of ruins the vibe. Tengu and Nyo I like, but they really push it too.
 
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ninemil

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Seriously, just compare their character models to the the other DOA characters.
I am.

Stand Serah next to say, Tina or Mila. Serah is elongated with her face sharp and angular, where Tina and Mila are rounded and soft. They've intentionally kept some of that low-poly look, to maintain likeness.

And it's out of place.

DoA5 characters look very different stylistically to many of their DoA4 equivalents for the same reason. I wouldn't want a DoA4-style guest anymore than one from a differing franchise.
 
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Star Outlaw

Member
I am.

Stand Serah next to say, Tina or Mila. Serah is elongated with her face sharp and angular, where Tina and Mila are rounded and soft. They've intentionally kept some of that low-poly look, to maintain likeness.

And it's out of place.

DoA5 characters look very different stylistically to many of their DoA4 equivalents for the same reason. I wouldn't want a DoA4-style guest anymore than one from a differing franchise.
....that's it? Seriously? This:
dead-or-alive-5_sarah.jpeg


is THAT much different than this:
tina_armstrong_01_by_momijihayabusa-d7eix6l.jpg

There's no wiggle room for different looking faces for the ladies? It's not even a bit refreshing that they don't all look exactly the same? Every other DOA character has some facial variations, especially between the guys, but this slightly longer, more angular face is what bothers you? So, because Sarah looks like how she's supposed to look, to you that obviously means her face must be low poly and off proportion? Because Team Ninja was somehow limited by her VF5 model?

Here's Sarah's VF5 render art used for character select (not the in game model), which is most definitely not low poly: http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...eogames___virtua_fighter_s_sarah_bryant_5.jpg

Sarah looks the way she does because that's what she looks like, and even still Team Ninja made her appearance more like DOA. She has a longer face with more angular features. Even Lisa has a longer face than most of the other girls.

I think I'm finally done with this thread. I can understand not liking the voices and animations, and it's okay not to like the Virtua Fighters. That's fine, but opinion or not, I think ^this^ is kind of a dumb reason.
 
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ninemil

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I think I'm finally done with this thread. I can understand not liking the voices and animations, and it's okay not to like the Virtua Fighters. That's fine, but opinion or not, I think ^this^ is kind of a dumb reason.
Like I say, you can let bias blind you if you want, but try not to belittle other people's opinions just because you disagree with them, ne? That's just somewhat cuntish.
 

HHH816

Well-Known Member
cause they don't have any dialogue or plot in the story mode..just akira URAAA URAAA URAAAA.

feel out of place
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
And yet these different rhythm somehow sparked a reason of a dislike because.... it was sped up? They did an excellent job minus the terrible pasted voice clips.

If Yu Suzuku did the editing, then you would have "disproportionate" animations and I rather not see him do it. If he did it, I would of actually agreed with you. Regardless, they are not special. Why is this an issue. They have no special catering dominance.
Seeing vf move next to DOA is like seeing roger rabbit move next to Bob hoskins, is the issue.

Not saying vf moves cartoony, quite the opposite, just saying its two totally different styles of animation and its jarring to see it side by side. Vf in DOA is like Mr game and watch in smash.

As for actually playing them, as I say - I have no issues with their move sets or their frame data. Characters like Akira and Jacky are a pleasure to fight, for the challenge and the differing styles. But they look, move, and sound completely wrong for the DoA aesthetic. They might have had work to incorporate them, if that's what the developers claim, but they didn't do enough work. Stylistically they stick out like a sore thumb, and that's jarring, and distracting.
^ This.

Because of everything we've already discussed? Poorly recorded VA, with shitty out-of-place sound effects? Stoic animation with low keyframes and snappy movement? Because of their proportions, and overtly low-poly design? They just look wrong *shrugs* You can let bias blind you, or you can accept that there's enough of us with a problem for that problem to be real.
Ayep.
Its why I kinda find it funny some are trying to just claim the "real" issue with vf is people don't know how to fight them lol. I mean I'm sure that's the case here and there but the actual complaints heard about vf say otherwise.

I already know about the voices and the animations, I was asking about how they "look," and I guess you answered that with low poly count, but that doesn't make sense to me since the models used for the VF characters were clearly remade for DOA5. There should be no reason for something to be wrong with the character models. Seriously, just compare their character models to the the other DOA characters. I can hear the quality of the voices and sound effects, and I can kind of see what you mean about the animations, but I'm really not being biased when I say I can't see anything wrong with how their proportioned or the polygon count. You're going to have to be more specific and/or use a screenshot to convince me. Their faces look normal, it's not like any of them are too tall or short or fat or skinny or deformed. Really trying to see what you're seeing but it's not easy.

For me, Rachel is the one who doesn't "look" like she fits because of her general character design. I realize that Ninja Gaiden shares its universe with DOA, but I still think it's a lot more believable that DOA shares a universe with Virtua Fighter than with Gaiden. I still feel like the VFers fit into the cast a lot better than Rachel does because they're martial artists and not demon slayers. I'm okay with Momiji because the game is already full of ninjas and I think she's cool, but even then I feel like their ninja magic kind of ruins the vibe. Tengu and Nyo I like, but they really push it too.
I can agree with that. Rachel Tengu and Nyo and Alpha and Phase 4 are all really out of place with the otherwise pretty grounded cast. Rachel in her alt costumes isn't so bad but that default is horrible.




On the actual vf designs...their outfits are fine but their proportions and even hairstyles are far more cartoon than DOA. Sharper features, crazier hair, etc. Pai in her alt hair is purebred DOA, but Sarah and Akira look off model. Sarah has Gumby like proportions, and is almost the same height Nicole was which is insane.

But anyways we have established people have issues with their aesthetic clashing with DOA.
 

Akumasama

Active Member
I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself.
I personally love Virtua Fighter as a game, but I don't like their presence in DoA for the following reasons.

1) One, max two guests might have been fine, 4 is way too much
2) Calling their transportation just a "copy paste" would be ingenerous towards the amount of work they put in it. But at the same time I find it disappointing. The copypaste of their audio and sound effects (which has ben done more to create a "tribute" to original fans, rather than to save on resources, but while I understand this I still don't like the result), the moveset just feels... off place. Even if they worked to adapt it to DoA standards, the moves and especially the animations stand out too much compared to the other fighters
3) Gameplay wise they are annoying. This was more true in Vanilla tbh, but it's still partially true now. Their fast frames, their advantages... They can be really annoying to deal with, and bring some funky "unrealistic" animations. (thinking about that Kick that Jacky uses to juggle people, but there are other examples)

To explain the unrealistic part. It's not so much that it's not "realistic", because frankly in a game with ninjas and super powers and air juggles do we really care about realism?
Nah.
It's more about being "pretty" to see. Most DoA stuff is not something that could happen in a real world fight, but it's "believable" within the rules of that world, and it's really nice to see.
Stuff like that juggle from Jacky (4+H+K) is just... clunky. If I didn't know better that it's working exactely as intended, I'd say it's a bug.

Sadly DoA5, compared to past titles, has more of stuff like that even for normal characters, but it's especially noticeable on VF ones and I don't like it.
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
Welp, here we go. If they would have changed the voice actors and removed the iconic sound effects from the four guests it would have been an extremely disrespectful move on Team Ninja's part. How you any of you like for your creations to just be changed and altered to fit what YOU want? Characters that defined a new era of 3D fighting to be exact. The whole point of the Virtua Fighter characters appearing here is to show Sega how much Virtua Fighter meant to them and how it inspired them to create their own fighting game. To me, if any of that was changed it wouldn't feel genuine. Which is what they went for when porting them.

The animations you all complain about I don't see. They are unique just like all of Dead or Alive's. Again, change creativity to fit your game? That's not the point of a guest feature. Virtua Fighter has a certain originality to it with the sounds and voices that has certainly clicked with fans being as most of them have been present since the beginning of the games launch back in the early 90's. For once a feature wasn't hacked apart, sloppily edited and wasn't payed dirt.
 

LarsMasters

Active Member
Copy paste files, with a bit of modified animations

*Voice
**No exclusive alternate language voice
**Akira didn't received any voice update from Fighting Climax, such as for grunts, taunts, tag calls
**Suggest needs most of their copy paste file need from pre-5th game (& updates) like:
***Tag & Taunt(s):
****Jacky: "Bring it On!" & "You'd better be ready!"
****Pai: "Iku wa yo!" & "Tekagen shinai wa yo?"
****Sarah: "I assume you're ready.", "Yes! Yahoo!" & "Here I come."
**No exclusive Taunt(s). All except Akira almost these

Except one thing: Akira become less difficult & Jacky becomes very improving
 
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