Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[FakeSypha]

[...] More specifically some of the things I liked about VF5 is the whole system of advantage vs disadvantage and the sort of turn based pacing that resulted, frame data in-game, circular and semi-circular moves, and balance (almost every character having a 12 frame jab for example). I don't even know if most of these things are in DOA 5. I'd appreciate any input, thank you.

Frame advantage/disadvantage either on hit or block is fairly improved since DOA4. In that game you have like 80% of the moveset on negative frames making most moves super unsafe. Throw punishing was a bit absurd to be honest. Now, in DOA5 you even get positive frames on block, or out of certain throws, parries, etc. So, learning the frame data would be more rewarding than in DOA4.

You have frame data in game. You can turn it on in the pause menu.

Circular, semi circular and linear moves from VF could be translated to "tracking" and "non tracking" moves on DOA5. There is actually a functioning sidestep system this time around. You better check it out. It's one of those things we all wanted to have in DOA5, since the magnetic tracking in DOA4.1 was total bullshit.

About balance... err, I don't wanna put a step in there yet. You can always check the official tier list thread... well, actually you don't want to. It's been quite a drama thread for the past few pages.
Some characters have more "tools" in their arsenal than others. However, to actually reach the point of stating all those theoretical items into facts would take some time.

The game has deeper mechanics than most gamers outside the community would acknowledge. I mean, the close minded people from other fighting games usually look down upon DOA for inconsistent reasons. They moan about it being only a game of tits and asses, or being actually a counterhold spam fest, or because it has a casual approach, or for whatever stupid biased opinion they've read from a shitty reviewer. I don't mean to offend anyone, so don't take this personally. This is what I usually read on FG forums from my country (all capcom oriented).

 

[DR2K]

Well I guess I'm being fooled then because my moves and reactions holds and guard all seem fine to me when I'm playing my buddies, granted 3 of us live in the same state, while the other three live in Georgia.
But again we are all on 360, and on wired routers.
But I can not agree, with you saying that it's on the same level as KOF XII and XIII, that's just plain not true.
I'll give you MK9 maybe, I only played it once or twice at a friends house, but I owned KOF XII and own XIII, and this is much much better than those two games.
I know that some people may be experiencing real bad lag, but EVERYONE had bad lag with KOF XII and that game was totally unplayable.
Now having said all that bottom line if the netcode can be improved it needs to happen, because even if I have perfect games every time if 50 other people have at best sub par games, then that's a problem.
But this ain't on KOF netcode, not even close.

I've had decent matches in KoFXII(it did improve post patch) and XIII, and even MK9. But I don't know how to play them well, so it's hard to drop things that are on the floor. Overall in DOA5 online my reactions are just educated guesses at best.

 

[Stikku]

Frame advantage/disadvantage either on hit or block is fairly improved since DOA4. In that game you have like 80% of the moveset on negative frames making most moves super unsafe. Throw punishing was a bit absurd to be honest. Now, in DOA5 you even get positive frames on block, or out of certain throws, parries, etc. So, learning the frame data would be more rewarding than in DOA4.

You have frame data in game. You can turn it on in the pause menu.

Circular, semi circular and linear moves from VF could be translated to "tracking" and "non tracking" moves on DOA5. There is actually a functioning sidestep system this time around. You better check it out. It's one of those things we all wanted to have in DOA5, since the magnetic tracking in DOA4.1 was total bullshit.

About balance... err, I don't wanna put a step in there yet. You can always check the official tier list thread... well, actually you don't want to. It's been quite a drama thread for the past few pages.
Some characters have more "tools" in their arsenal than others. However, to actually reach the point of stating all those theoretical items into facts would take some time.

The game has deeper mechanics than most gamers outside the community would acknowledge. I mean, the close minded people from other fighting games usually look down upon DOA for inconsistent reasons. They moan about it being only a game of tits and asses, or being actually a counterhold spam fest, or because it has a casual approach, or for whatever stupid biased opinion they've read from a shitty reviewer. I don't mean to offend anyone, so don't take this personally. This is what I usually read on FG forums from my country (all capcom oriented).

I don't think anyone ever wanted command-sidestepping in DOA, especially in the way it was implemented into DOA5. It just doesn't belong in DOA. Freestep to position or counter / block and punish. Adding DOA5's SS into the equation just screws up the flow of the triangle system.

DOA5 is the worst DOA yet, okay? I use that term broadly to encompass that DOA is a series of "Fighting Games," and as a fighting game, DOA5 is just trashy. Rather than having lots of useful options in a match, and despite Team Ninja actually adding new kinds of techniques, DOA was never built around the new ideas and DOA5 doesn't implement them properly, so what we get is an incredibly simple game where counters have been nerfed beyond reasonable use (both in the damage department, as well as viability from stuns department) and command sidestepping is better than actual sidestep attacks that only a few characters in DOA ever had.
The inability to delay many combos like in the previous DOA's was a really stupid modification as well.

The game is just a huge insult, so you're better off not liking it - else you're setting yourself up for a world of pain.

 

[Raansu]

A useful sidestep is one of the best things DoA5 did...Freestep was useless in DoA4 outside of positioning. You might as well have been playing a 2D fighter.

 

[DarkRios III]

No matter what though, as much as I like playing DOA 5 with my buddies, I'd love to feel confident when playing ranked and that isn't the case right now, so unless this upcoming patch works I fear online at least this will be a casual affire for many people.

 

[Madian]

When people talk about competitive and noncompetitive gaming they usually mean something other than what they say. People will tell you about frame data, combos, balance, deep mechanics etc. But, at least in my opinion, a competitive game is one where putting a month into learning the game puts you way ahead of people who play it casually.

Games that get labeled as non competitive typically involves games that seem to overly reward random guesses or punish players for trying to formulate a strategy. Dead or Alive received a reputation in the old days for being a random guessing game due to the holds. Holds now are a lot less powerful than they were in previous titles so you can't just throw them out and expect to win half your games for it.

 

[Raansu]

No matter what though, as much as I like playing DOA 5 with my buddies, I'd love to feel confident when playing ranked and that isn't the case right now, so unless this upcoming patch works I fear online at least this will be a casual affire for many people.

Online is always casual, regardless of how good the netcode is.

 

[DarkRios III]

Online is always casual, regardless of how good the netcode is.

I agree, but some people here don't seem to believe that, never the less, it does help the game can be played online without issues.
Streams, popularity amongst the "FGC" stuff like that will help it become excepted as a serious fighter.

 

[Rikuto]

I don't think anyone ever wanted command-sidestepping in DOA, especially in the way it was implemented into DOA5. It just doesn't belong in DOA. Freestep to position or counter / block and punish. Adding DOA5's SS into the equation just screws up the flow of the triangle system.

DOA5 is the worst DOA yet, okay? I use that term broadly to encompass that DOA is a series of "Fighting Games," and as a fighting game, DOA5 is just trashy. Rather than having lots of useful options in a match, and despite Team Ninja actually adding new kinds of techniques, DOA was never built around the new ideas and DOA5 doesn't implement them properly, so what we get is an incredibly simple game where counters have been nerfed beyond reasonable use (both in the damage department, as well as viability from stuns department) and command sidestepping is better than actual sidestep attacks that only a few characters in DOA ever had.
The inability to delay many combos like in the previous DOA's was a really stupid modification as well.

The game is just a huge insult, so you're better off not liking it - else you're setting yourself up for a world of pain.

I do believe you have perhaps the worst assortment of opinions that have ever belonged to another human being.

 

[Awesmic]

I do believe you have perhaps the worst assortment of opinions that have ever belonged to another human being.

I'll see your Stikku and raise you Game Informer and Fighters Generation.

But to be fair, that's not even saying much...

 

[Rikuto]

Game Informer comes up with bogus opinions because they are payed to. (understandable)

Fighters Generation comes up with bogus opinions out of emotional bias. (understandable)

Stikku's opinions appear to come from nothing other than pure, concentrated Stupid. (inexcusable)

 

[Stikku]

>Liking Rikuto
laughing bitches

 

[JKe SMoker]

When people talk about competitive and noncompetitive gaming they usually mean something other than what they say. People will tell you about frame data, combos, balance, deep mechanics etc. But, at least in my opinion, a competitive game is one where putting a month into learning the game puts you way ahead of people who play it casually.

Games that get labeled as non competitive typically involves games that seem to overly reward random guesses or punish players for trying to formulate a strategy. Dead or Alive received a reputation in the old days for being a random guessing game due to the holds. Holds now are a lot less powerful than they were in previous titles so you can't just throw them out and expect to win half your games for it.

How was this not a thing in DOA4? If I let myself play vs myself after a month of training I would kick my own ass so bad.. Random holds are not free and they don't favour anybody but your opponent since you can just punish the shit out of people who do this..

Besides every game has a luck-factor to it or else the results would get really stale and nobody would wanna play that game.

 

[AngryWorm]

There's a lot of random elements in DOA that not many other fighters have. Might be part of it.

 

[LostSkeleton73]

I agree with several of the viewpoints here. Would also like to add the perceived notion that prior DOA tourneys were "fixed", which made some of the fanboys of other games that much more willing to crap all over it being "worthy".
I find it amusing that people who bitch about DOA's system in general are the same that are fine with repetitive (read: infinite) combos, or other such nonsense. But I digress.
Fact of the matter is, there are a lot of options to beat people up nowadays, almost too many options, but the fact remains that there is enough room out there for all of them. It doesn't have to be a matter of fighting game religious fanaticism. It should be about having fun, being competitive when it calls for it, and acceptance of other franchises.
Life gets pretty boring if you refused to eat anything outside of Ketchup Chips.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Online is always casual, regardless of how good the netcode is.

Oh, sure, NOW you understand that.

I agree with several of the viewpoints here. Would also like to add the perceived notion that prior DOA tourneys were "fixed", which made some of the fanboys of other games that much more willing to crap all over it being "worthy".
I find it amusing that people who bitch about DOA's system in general are the same that are fine with repetitive (read: infinite) combos, or other such nonsense. But I digress.
Fact of the matter is, there are a lot of options to beat people up nowadays, almost too many options, but the fact remains that there is enough room out there for all of them. It doesn't have to be a matter of fighting game religious fanaticism. It should be about having fun, being competitive when it calls for it, and acceptance of other franchises.
Life gets pretty boring if you refused to eat anything outside of Ketchup Chips.

Exactly. Majority of the ones against DOA are just the ones who get mad if their combos are interrupted.

Personally, i find it to be competitive if both parties can struggle at all times. Aka, not much of a fight if they can't fight back, hence my aversion to using "free/guaranteed damage". Its also why i love love love DOA's counter system.

 

[Ace Flibble]

To the best of my (albeit limited) knowledge, the only regions where DOA's competitive scene is looked down upon really are North America and Canada.
I remember there being a lot of hype here in the UK for DOA2 coming out and that was the first fighting game I can remember having local tournaments long after the game's release, unlike other games of the time like Tekken 3/Tag and Street Fighter Alpha/EX games which died off within a month or so of coming out (in fact the SF EX games didn't even last two weeks). Hell, I distinctly remember Playstation Power magazine more or less dedicating their christmas issue that year to the release of DOA2:H, they made two different front covers for it and a four-page middle spread, while Tekken Tag was relegated to half a page.
I had some friends living in France and Italy at the time of DOA3's launch too and I recall that being quite a bit deal and them switching from Virtua Fighter to DOA and there being much talk of tournaments (cash prize, big tournaments, not just local shop ones).
Maybe the hype didn't really pan out quite that strongly and perhaps I'm remembering it with rose-tinted glasses, but as far as I recall DOA has always been a pretty big deal in the UK and mainland EU. It's just the Americas and Canada where it's not given a chance because the media goes "lol boobs" the second it's mentioned and it seems to me like the fighting game scene (and the FPS/TPS scene) in America/Canada is heavily influenced by what's hot in the press.

As far as DOA5 itself goes, well, the netcode does suck, at least until the patch rolls out to everyone, then we'll see. But really I think it's more how the series is viewed as a whole, rather than anything about DOA5 specifically.

 

[BierKlauMeister]

I think the terrible offline scene of this game holds it back. If people in the USA step it up, it would be better received.

 

[Bam of the Ppl]

The day people man/woman up and push to create a scene it will do well. I may not approve of TN idiotic idea of adding retarded breast physics and orgasm simulations as losing poses, but I do see a concrete fighter. The idea of concrete damage, a more skill-based hold system, and an actual SS function made a damn fine game imo.

The game is solid. TN (aside from the netcode, which Ive actually had good experiences with ironically) did what they came to do. It is our turn to clear up misconceptions, and show our love for the game. There will be haters; thats a fact and you cant blame a ton of them. However we were all fortunate to know that this is a solid and VERY enjoyable fighter. Watching PL, Rikuto, Mr. Wah, Mia etc play have all been very enjoyable as well as insight into the complexity of the system. We just need to get people to see it. That being said, where my So Cal people at? lol

 

[BierKlauMeister]

Where ur SoCal people at? Get your ass to Wednesday Night Fights if ur lucky enough to live in socal