Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[Ace Flibble]

I don't think which character you pick really matters in that regard. For me, DOA has always been about match psychology first and foremost. Some characters do have more tools in this regard but really it comes down to the player. Helena isn't a grappler but I've played Helenas who have completely embarassed my Tina in the throw and hold department because they tricked me right into it. Leifang's not really a bulldogging character, but she can sure do it if you know what looks scariest to an unwitting opponent.

Don't think of DOA in terms of frame advantages, stuns, guaranteed damage and all that usual stuff. Knowing all that will help - you sure don't want to be hitting buttons at random, I'm not saying you should entirely disregard those things - but utimately it's the more cunning player that will win. This is why you don't see character tiers bought up as often in DOA conversation as you do in say, Street Fighter or Guilty Gear. A slower and unsafer character can win just as easily in all manner of ways. Sometimes you can even turn being unsafe and slow into an advantage.

Think of DOA as a strategy game rather than as an action game and you'll probably find you can become a tighter and more competitive player, and you'll probably have more fun too.

 

[Rikuto]

Bass is a good example of a character who can to some extent ignore the stun game, primarily because he's really shit when it comes to actually having a good stun game in the first place and also because he does damage outside of stun anyway. He's a bit like Marduk (albeit a shitty Marduk, to be honest. Still very fun).

Still doesn't change the fact that you're playing a stun centric game and I just can't play other characters because I just end up getting bored.

Smallest life is your only hope!

 

[UncleKitchener]

I want to believe, Rick.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Those characters live on the punishment end of the spectrum. They punish the use of the triangle system, that is part of their niche.

Someone like Rig, on the other hand, would get off a single 7K on CH and his entire followup combo will be guaranteed. No countering possible. He's basically playing tekken, because he's on THAT end of the spectrum.

Someone like Hayabusa or Kasumi is in the middle, and they are a slave to the triangle system. Most people are playing characters in that fashion, and thats why they are getting pissed off.



In-fighting and the yomi associated with it are all fine and dandy, thats one level of the game. in DOA 4, every single fight came down to that, and thats why people felt turned off... there was no way out of it. If it didn't fit their playstyle to infight and be a slave to the triangle system, they would get wrecked, get pissed, and move on.

Now we can have fights between someone playing the Tekken style of spacing and banking on that one CH to take half the lifebar vs the DOA infighting, constant guessing and adapting.

Both styles exist in 5, and this is good. More matchups, more possibilities, more depth.

People are playing one character and assuming thats the entire game. They couldn't be more wrong.

Well, the problem still stands...that those of us who got DOA to play DOA are still stuck fighting Tekken people. If they want to play Tekken style, they should go play Tekken.

Although I do find it hilariously appropriate that RIG is the Tekken style, considering his role in the story.

 

[Tulkas]

That's why I like 5 the way I do, it's definitely a step in the right direction for the series. Guaranteed damage and unholdable stuns just made the game that much better. Next is to shorten the number of hits to get a CB, and remove the ability to slow escape sitdown stun, and that's about it. Maybe add another unholdable stun? *shrugs shoulders*

Heheh, I think that DOA5 is a step in a good direction but I disagree next step is to shorten number of hits for CB... Heheh. CB is the reward of being succesfull on the risky stun game, defensive holds will lose a lot of sense if stun game disappears.

I think DHs are in DOA like combo breakers in Killer Instincs... In DOA you can get a lot of fun ading hits while opponent is stuned which is someway similar to the fun of lengthen combos of KI; in both games combos are breakable. Moreover, KI's combo breakers inflict damage and requires defender player must know and anticipate attacker moves in order to perfom the combo breaker with correct timing. Quite similar to DOA, isn't? Maybe KI wasn't a competitive game because of glitches and unbalances but it was damm fun!!!

 

[Tulkas]

Personally I'd like to see any fighting game go full on cinematic kung-fu one day. I respect every players (Especially pro players) opinion and if they know I am wrong here, than I accept that. Juggles combos never seemed that important to me is all. Stuns, as long as they make sense, I'm fine with.

Very good point. BTW (as I recently told about Killer Instincs) KI virtually didn't have juggles and it was very damm fun!

 

[ScattereDreams]

Eh.. I think players from other FGC just look at the fact that players can hold out of stuns and immediately get scared and turn away, but they don't understand how much depth DOA5 has to offer, such as, the movement/spacing, the sit down stuns, frame data, wake up game, wall game, and so much more.

While I do believe players showing up to offline tournaments does play around and makes a difference in whether a game lives or dies competitively, I also believe a game being mainstream is important. Being mainstream doesn't just mean if the game is in tournaments. I wish there were actual reviews and tutorials from competitive players, to cater to new players who want to learn. Most Capcom fighters are supported by cross counter T.V, Tekken has Level Up Your Game and Avoiding the Puddle, BlazBlue tutorials are usually done by Jourdal on youtube, and then I don't believe I've ever saw a DOA tutorial until Emperor Cow showed up >.>. Just wanted to point out, that being mainstream matters in competitive fighters.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Very good point. BTW (as I recently told about Killer Instincs) KI virtually didn't have juggles and it was very damm fun!

KI doesn't have juggles really, but it does have inescapable 60-100-hit combos. Even the Game Boy version with its simple two command buttons supported combos beyond 70 hits. So... yeah. Not terribly fun when you get caught in those.

 

[Prototype909]

I think a problem for a lot of people when watching the game is that to a spectator it's hard to tell where the predicting/yomi/'reading' begins and where the straight up guessing that leads to a good result ends. The result is the same but for a lot of people the difference between the two means a lot to people.

You could argue that guessing occurs in other fighting games too but unlike other fighting games you have to guess on defense, and on offense (post hit) that sort of system turns a lot of people off.

As someone mentioned previously you can get around this by playing characters like Rig who always has 'his turn' off certain hits that lead to Tekken combos. The problem is some people may dislike other aspects of these characters and it's not as easy as switching just to subvert the triangle-system. Just some food for thought.

 

[Tulkas]

KI doesn't have juggles really, but it does have inescapable 60-100-hit combos. Even the Game Boy version with its simple two command buttons supported combos beyond 70 hits. So... yeah. Not terribly fun when you get caught in those.

Hey, all KI combos are breakeables but ultra combos (which are a finisher moves of a match someway similar to fatalities in Mortal Kombat)... Maybe you didn't know it when you played it so you felt caught in those but you were not really caught because there were tools to escape (combo breakers), heheheh.

BTW, I've heard people (especially newcomers) to say "I can't do nothing!!!" when they get stunned in DOA and get hitted many times in a row... They just don't know enough game mechanics in the same way you didn't know enough Killer Instincs time ago, and they also felt DOA no terribly fun those times.... Heheh, KI somehow was a radical and revolutionary 2D fighting game at the time and had a important success among fighting games of that time, DOA is in a similar role in 3D fighting games IMO. Of course DOA changed strong violence of KI's formule for sexy girls! LOL

 

[Stikku]

Because it's not as good as DOA4. (yet)

 

[shunwong]

Because it's not as good as DOA4. (yet)

You're off to see the Wizard,
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
You'll find he is a whiz of a Wiz
If ever a Wiz there was.
If ever, oh ever, a Wiz there was
The Wizard of Oz is one because
Because, because, because, because, because...

 

[Stikku]

You're off to see the Wizard,
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
You'll find he is a whiz of a Wiz
If ever a Wiz there was.
If ever, oh ever, a Wiz there was
The Wizard of Oz is one because
Because, because, because, because, because...

 

[ookamunka]

Hey, all KI combos are breakeables but ultra combos

This is actually completely false. High level play consisted on a lot of high damage lower count unbreakable combos.

 

[shinryu]

Don't think of DOA in terms of frame advantages, stuns, guaranteed damage and all that usual stuff. Knowing all that will help - you sure don't want to be hitting buttons at random, I'm not saying you should entirely disregard those things - but utimately it's the more cunning player that will win. This is why you don't see character tiers bought up as often in DOA conversation as you do in say, Street Fighter or Guilty Gear. A slower and unsafer character can win just as easily in all manner of ways. Sometimes you can even turn being unsafe and slow into an advantage.

True to some extent, but I don't know how you can ever turn being unsafe and slow into and advantage; you're either unsafe or unable to interrupt or not. You can break a guy with no hand whatsoever in poker, but I'd rather have the royal flush given the choice. Analogously, some things are guaranteed in this game, frame data lets you know that, and as a general rule you probably shouldn't give up guaranteed damage*. For what it's worth, I kind of think Helena is actually effectively a grappler in this game, since she's got nothing else going for her except mid/throw mixups and possibly a strong force tech game. I'm beginning to think that the force tech game is really going to be where the tiers get decided along with the ability to ignore the stun game.

Much as I hate to say it, I think tiers get discussed less since we're a smaller community and in some ways less sophisticated on average. But I do think the tiers are more like VF tiers than Tekken or SF tiers with a few exceptions. Hi there, Helena.

*Sometimes advantage trumps damage; the force tech game is a really good example of that actually. It's technically possible for e.g. Mila to do much more damage off a ground throw than using 3f+k to force tech from a hard knockdown, but being at +19 is enormous in terms of being able to force a new mixup with 7k/9p/66f+p. I kind of hope Bayman doesn't have a good force tech setup, cause a +19 Bayman is one of the scarier things I can think of in the game. Choose between 236k for +1 or a basically guaranteed ddt and enjoy! Or consider sit down stuns: if you know your opponent doesn't stagger escape you can basically go for whatever, but if he does you'd better know what is actually guaranteed. Otherwise blocked launchers can give up a lot of damage.

 

[Rikuto]

Well, the problem still stands...that those of us who got DOA to play DOA are still stuck fighting Tekken people. If they want to play Tekken style, they should go play Tekken.

Although I do find it hilariously appropriate that RIG is the Tekken style, considering his role in the story.

I'm not seeing the "problem", exactly. From my point of view, I'm stuck playing against hold monkeys all day long. It's not an issue though, because I use my preferred style overcome it. You should be doing the same thing to beat Rig.

In any fighting game you're going to be stuck playing against characters who fight differently than your own. That's the entire point, isn't it?

 

[CrimsonCJ]

I'm not seeing the "problem", exactly. From my point of view, I'm stuck playing against hold monkeys all day long. It's not an issue though, because I use my preferred style overcome it. You should be doing the same thing to beat Rig.

In any fighting game you're going to be stuck playing against characters who fight differently than your own. That's the entire point, isn't it?

As a be all and end all? No, not really. Diversity is good... right up to the point where it renders superior game design obsolete. Obviously, anyone and everyone can and should have a right to disagree about what good game design is, but discarding the argument in the name of general diversity misses the point.

 

[Rikuto]

As a be all and end all? No, not really. Diversity is good... right up to the point where it renders superior game design obsolete. Obviously, anyone and everyone can and should have a right to disagree about what good game design is, but discarding the argument in the name of general diversity misses the point.

So what is the argument? So far I haven't noticed one.

Just "I don't like how he plays and I don't want to deal with it", which frankly is a little too ambiguous to argue against in a fighting game. I don't like how Leifang plays and I'd rather not deal with her, but if I come up against one I have to respect it as a legitimate style because it isn't broken and it has its weaknesses.

I recognize that my "complaints" against Leifang are just personal weaknesses on my own part, so I deal with it. To openly object against her presence would be irrational because it's my own failing that makes her an issue.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

So what is the argument? So far I haven't noticed one.

Just "I don't like how he plays and I don't want to deal with it", which frankly is a little too ambiguous to argue against in a fighting game. I don't like how Leifang plays and I'd rather not deal with her, but if I come up against one I have to respect it as a legitimate style because it isn't broken and it has its weaknesses.

I recognize that my "complaints" against Leifang are just personal weaknesses on my own part, so I deal with it. To openly object against her presence would be irrational because it's my own failing that makes her an issue.

"Isn't broken and has its weaknesses" is a subterranean standard; no advocacy could ever be accomplished on those grounds. And it's not like the argument being articulated as "X character is awful, he should be banned!" It was that an entire subset of game play is uninspiring.

That's not an unfair point. I mean, I have read people say that the defensive hold system itself should be discarded. I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's not an inherently illogical argument or something.

It's one thing if we're talking how to play the game. It's another thing if we're talking how the game plays.

 

[shinryu]

"Isn't broken and has its weaknesses" is a subterranean standard; no advocacy could ever be accomplished on those grounds. And it's not like the argument being articulated as "X character is awful, he should be banned!" It was that an entire subset of game play is uninspiring.

That's not an unfair point. I mean, I have read people say that the defensive hold system itself should be discarded. I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's not an inherently illogical argument or something.

It's one thing if we're talking how to play the game. It's another thing if we're talking how the game plays.

Well, I think I understand the argument: basically, it's fuck that Guile bullshit (or fuck charge characters and their shit in general).

That is to say, you can either say that fighting Guile/Blanka/Honda is a fucking irritating chore but they represent a legitimate playstyle and so you have to work around that, or you can say fuck Guile and go play KOF where charge characters like him don't really exist. For what it's worth, if not for Viper and KOFXIII's shitty netcode I'd do that. I could see how someone could find the very existence of a Tekken-like character sufficient that he'd rather not play DOA5 at all, but that seems kind of extreme. Rig's seems more a shitty Sarah than a Tekken clone if anything.