DOA5α Hold Frame Data

[MASTER]

True, but i think the reason people feel/believe the 3point hold is more spammable than the 4 point is because its easy to use the mid hold more often than all others, especially since most of the characters moves are based off of mid. For example when DOA2 was made and had the 3point hold system Itagaki made sure there was several moves that were hold resistant to avoid the constant mid hold usage. This made it easier to read mid hold 'spammers' and granted better throw set ups in some cases. In DOA5 we do not have that currently with a few small exceptions. Which is why its still better to have a 4-point hold system rather than a 3 point hold system on top of the fact that people aren't convinced of the 3-point hold system anyway no matter how you tweak it (It still says 3point which makes people automatically believe its 'Spammable' where as if it were 4-point they believe its not as 'Spammable').

Of course this goes back to what you said, The success rate would be lower and IMO would be MUCH lower which in turn will result in actually seeing the hold animation on screen less unless it was really on reaction. Of course anyone can still do it as much as possible but the question then would be, would you really want to do it that much with your chances of success being much lower and your recovery and punishment being much higher now?(Risk/Reward).

EDIT:

Enjoy your 15-man tournament scene.

You've always been good at swaying completely off topic, major props!

MASTER

 

[Matt Ponton]

I long for the days of a 15 man tournament.

But let's not get off topic here guys.

 

[DrDogg]

True, but i think the reason people feel/believe the 3point hold is more spammable than the 4 point is because its easy to use the mid hold more often than all others, especially since most of the characters moves are based off of mid. For example when DOA2 was made and had the 3point hold system Itagaki made sure there was several moves that were hold resistant to avoid the constant mid hold usage. This made it easier to read mid hold 'spammers' and granted better throw set ups in some cases. In DOA5 we do not have that currently with a few small exceptions. Which is why its still better to have a 4-point hold system rather than a 3 point hold system on top of the fact that people aren't convinced of the 3-point hold system anyway no matter how you tweak it (It still says 3point which makes people automatically believe its 'Spammable' where as if it were 4-point they believe its not as 'Spammable').

Of course this goes back to what you said, The success rate would be lower and IMO would be MUCH lower which in turn will result in actually seeing the hold animation on screen less unless it was really on reaction. Of course anyone can still do it as much as possible but the question then would be, would you really want to do it that much with your chances of success being much lower and your recovery and punishment being much higher now?(Risk/Reward).

EDIT:
You've always been good at swaying completely off topic, major props!

I don't recall the OP stating ANYTHING about 3-point holds or 4-point holds. Maybe you should try staying on topic before you make comments about others?

I guess it's easier to stay on topic when only 15 people visit your site...

 

[grap3fruitman]

For example when DOA2 was made and had the 3point hold system Itagaki made sure there was several moves that were hold resistant to avoid the constant mid hold usage.

A lot of moves were hold resistant because of a lack of animations for the moves that looked right. Moves that were un-holdable in the US DOA2 became hold able in 2LE when they added more animations. More moves became hold able in future iterations as well.

It still says 3point which makes people automatically believe its 'Spammable' where as if it were 4-point they believe its not as 'Spammable'

Six points would be even less "spammable" so why aren't people arguing for that? Fixing the actual hold is the only real solution, not adding more holds.

 

[MASTER]

I don't recall the OP stating ANYTHING about 3-point holds or 4-point holds. Maybe you should try staying on topic before you make comments about others?

I guess it's easier to stay on topic when only 15 people visit your site...

Wait you have a hard time reading too i forgot because if not you would realized I was responding to someones post. Good job.

@Grape, Its not about making the hold unusable, its about balancing it withing the triangle system. Right now the smaller window and longer recovery that we are seeing in the frame data is doing it pretty well.

MASTER

 

[DrDogg]

Wait you have a hard time reading too i forgot because if not you would realized I was responding to someones post. Good job.

And I was responding to your post. Good job!

 

[DyByHands]

Its now 16 people on that site.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Its not about making the hold unusable, its about balancing it withing the triangle system. Right now the smaller window and longer recovery that we are seeing in the frame data is doing it pretty well.

Here's a quick table I threw together with various points about the "triangle" system.

And here's how your triangle looks at the moment:

 

[Matt Ponton]

Though you did forget grounded state.

 

[Allan Paris]

its about balancing it withing the triangle system. Right now the smaller window and longer recovery that we are seeing in the frame data is doing it pretty well.

In a conversation we had about 3 weeks ago, that lasted for at least 2 hours. You said that the holds are still stronger than attacks. That someone holding is rewarded more damage than the attacker would get from continued attacks/juggling. You also said to fix that, TN would need to put more stuns like Busa's that would stop holding immediately out of stun or, they would have to make holds weaker.

Now your saying that the triangle system is balanced, "pretty well"?

hhmmm...

 

[SkatanMilla]

Holds were never spam'able in doa4 during offline play, it was easy to punish them with a 7f or a low throw on reaction. It was even easier because holds increased your hitbox for getting thrown by A LOT so you didn't even have to be remotely close to get punished for doing a random hold.

Since the damage of holds in general has been lowered more than what it was in 4, it's going to be even riskier to use them. But I guess people are dead set on whining about the stun/hold system no matter what, because most players didn't learn how to utilize it properly.

edit: btw are you sure holds are 0 in this game, they had 1f startup in doa4, that's why you could use meaty attacks against them.

 

[Allan Paris]

But I guess people are dead set on whining about the stun/hold system no matter what, because most players didn't learn how to utilize it properly.

edit: btw are you sure holds are 0 in this game, they had 1f startup in doa4, that's why you could use meaty attacks against them.

I'd like to believe I utilized it properly. I did it pretty damn well. That does not make it ok for it stay the same. Playing how the game is now it is mentally fatiguing in a bad way. That 1i start up means squat shit, only in certain setups could you expose it. Those setups are now gone, so, yeah. In the DOA5a demo the active window is tighter and the recovery on them are now longer. That's how you are able to hit them with meaty attacks, not because of a 1i start up.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Holds were never spam'able in doa4 during offline play, it was easy to punish them with a 7f or a low throw on reaction. It was even easier because holds increased your hitbox for getting thrown by A LOT so you didn't even have to be remotely close to get punished for doing a random hold.

Just want to point out that Bayman, Rikuto's main, does not have a 7 frame throw punish as he just has offensive holds after the 5 frame neutral.

 

[SkatanMilla]

Just want to point out that Bayman, Rikuto's main, does not have a 7 frame throw punish as he just has offensive holds after the 5 frame neutral.

That's was character flaw in doa4, not a system flaw.

And also, offensive holds in Doa5 don't exist as of yet, so Bayman is likely to be just as strong with punishment as anyone else.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

That's was character flaw in doa4, not a system flaw.

And also, offensive holds in Doa5 don't exist as of yet, so Bayman is likely to be just as strong with punishment as anyone else.

actually there are two... Ayane's running hooligan throw and Ryu's handstand throw.

 

[Matt Ponton]

That's was character flaw in doa4, not a system flaw.

And also, offensive holds in Doa5 don't exist as of yet, so Bayman is likely to be just as strong with punishment as anyone else.

Bayman was shown doing offensive holds in the trailer.

and I was merely pointing out that it could be a catalyst for his angst against holds.

 

[DrDogg]

Holds were never spam'able in doa4 during offline play, it was easy to punish them with a 7f or a low throw on reaction. It was even easier because holds increased your hitbox for getting thrown by A LOT so you didn't even have to be remotely close to get punished for doing a random hold.

Since the damage of holds in general has been lowered more than what it was in 4, it's going to be even riskier to use them. But I guess people are dead set on whining about the stun/hold system no matter what, because most players didn't learn how to utilize it properly.

edit: btw are you sure holds are 0 in this game, they had 1f startup in doa4, that's why you could use meaty attacks against them.

I played quite a bit of offline DOA4. It didn't make the game any better. I'm still forced to guess after placing my opponent in a stun. All of the major problems are still present. Punishing someone who attempts to hold is not the primary issue because they will still attempt to hold and the threat of the hold still remains.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

That's was character flaw in doa4, not a system flaw.

And also, offensive holds in Doa5 don't exist as of yet, so Bayman is likely to be just as strong with punishment as anyone else.

acctually .. hayabusa's while rising is an offensive hold .. try it

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

actually there are two... Ayane's running hooligan throw and Ryu's handstand throw.

tested ayanes run throw.. its not an offensive hold .. (you get "hi counter strike" as a punish with a strike and you get merely a "counter throw" if punished by a throw .. and a "high counter THROW" if you throw a hold) ... basicly the same properties as a normal throw

if it were an offensive hold you would get ... "high counter HOLD" if you catch a strike .. and you get "counter HOLD" if you throw a hold .. and it would lose to throws giving the thrower a "HIGH COUNTER THROW"

to my knowledge ... the only throw in the demo currently with these properties .. is hayabusa's while rising

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

tested ayanes run throw.. its not an offensive hold .. (you get "hi counter strike" as a punish with a strike and you get merely a "counter throw" if punished by a throw .. and a "high counter THROW" if you throw a hold) ... basicly the same properties as a normal throw

if it were an offensive hold you would get ... "high counter HOLD" if you catch a strike .. and you get "counter HOLD" if you throw a hold .. and it would lose to throws giving the thrower a "HIGH COUNTER THROW"

to my knowledge ... the only throw in the demo currently with these properties .. is hayabusa's while rising

Ah, yeah see I'm never sure on her running throw cause some say yes and some say no :/