DOA5 Demo: Consolidated Feedback

[x Sypher x]

I guess no one liked my idea lol.

 

[Chris Harris]

I still think the easiest way to fix the game is a few tweaks.

-Add more NH launchers

- Less stuns

- NEGATIVE 40 on Holds and HCH

- 2 in 1s and 3 in 1s

Those three things will open the game up much more. With the hold doing so much in terms of damage, positioning, and momentum changing it being -40 would be fine. It would make the hold more of a really good read/reaction than someone tossing it out to see what happens.

If there are less stuns you have to play more spacing and smart play. The game needs normal hit launchers in general.

The 2 in 1s and 3 in 1s should be vs crouching opponents for characters that have to play the high/low game because they have average speed. Their are characters that go completely around the stun game and those that have to play within it. That will make characters good/bad and more unique. Just a few less stunning moves that make people have to really WATCH before throwing a counter so they know death could happen when it is missed.

The common reaction when getting hit is to low hold almost instantaneous. If it is -40 it makes it a great tool but a very painful tool if used incorrectly. At low levels they won't be able to punish anyway because they are just doing stuff anyway. If not -40 then make it like -30/35.

 

[x Sypher x]

I just had a thought. I have heard from a few that the stun system needs tweaking. I was thinking that the majority of all stuns should be unholdable with the exception of say maybe 2 types, and those would be:

(For lack of better terms)
1. Stuns by jabs (on CH or NH)
2. Stuns by low attacks that don't cause a sitdown (on CH or NH)
(The reason why I chose these two is because these types of stuns are the least used during threshold since the majority of stuns used are by mid attacks.)

And then any other type of stun AND ANYTHING on HCH should be unholdable PERIOD. Of course you have to consider frame advantage, recovery, SEing, etc. But this way the attacker doesn't have too many options and offense isn't too powerful. If holds were removed from stun completely then the attacker could just hit you with whatever the hell he wants until he decides to launch, and fighting in water would be SUPER dangerous cuz it's AAALL about the stun game there. Not that it's a bad thing, punishment should be granted when successfully stunning your opponent, but if my suggestion here were implemented then it would give you a sense of what NOT to do or what situation to avoid in the instance of any of those 2 situations occurring. That's not to say they will never occur, but it gives both players something to think about and layout their strategies accordingly.

Then again I could be wrong. Perhaps removing holds from stun altogether would be the better route if they rework the stun system properly and add NH launchers, etc, blah blah blah, pretty much what most of you guys have been saying. That would certainly force "educated" guessing in regards to holds and reduce (if not eliminate) lucky guessing. Maybe they could limit the threshold to 2 levels (3 seems a bit much) and then you can get max height from a launcher (depending on the strength of the attack/stun before the launch). They sort of did this with DOAD where you didn't have to maximize the threshold to get max height, but I think it depended on the attack/stun dealt, not sure. I'm not very savvy with all the technical aspect but that's just what I had in mind.

 

[DriftSlave]

well Reducing the states when a hold can before is what it is...I believe you should only be able to perform a hold(expert holds for that matter) from a neutral state(standing or crouching) or during a block state(block stun but not guard crush). DOA needs to start rewarding good defense, if you block a string you should be able to punish it with certain moves, if your able to accurately read the string and "See"(not guess) the height of the attack, you should be able to hold. because im playing the CPU i can't accurately determine if you can sidestep from blockstun but thats another viable option along with obviously ducking strings if they are high. The point is, the game still has the 3 way system, and holds will still whiff and still be punished~ It's just now it's promotes players to block/duck/or sidestep now instead of mashing on holds. In addition to that it would give offensive the true sense of punishing a move without being counter held.

of course they would have to change move properties and change some stun states to counter hit only to compensate, because currently I only feel like I can get a ensure combo when I do a Limbo stun with ....I don't feel like that should be the case as this game seems to be combo heavy(not like KOFXIII, but more so then VF5) anyways...more time in the lab...

 

[DrDogg]

I'm just going to post this again because it's still relevant:

Hitomi's Parry - Give her frame advantage and nothing more, but give her three parries instead of just one. I'd like to see a high, mid and low punch parry. That way it's easier to fight her, the Hitomi player has to think more before using the parries, but they're still effective. It adds more depth and skill to Hitomi while not really making her better or worse. Of course, if the counter/parry frames are adjusted, this may be a moot point. This suggestion is only effective if the counter frames remain as they were in DOA4.

Helena's Bokuho - As a Helena player I can tell you that I felt she was much better in DOA2U than she was in DOA4. Yes, BKO is great in DOA4, but her options from BKO were very limited. I can go high, which leads to nothing in most cases, and a stun at best. I can go mid, which is the counter of choice in almost every situation, but I can mix that up with a throw. This mixup is her best option out of BKO. Her one low from BKO was nerfed from DOA2U to DOA4 (or was it 4.0 to 4.1?) so that's not a very good option either. It also didn't help that she was something like -12 when canceling out of BKO.

I really like Helena's various stances and the depth of her character (I think she's one of the deepest characters in the game), but she needs more VIABLE options. That's the key here. From a competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter what you add or remove from any of the characters if those assets are not viable.

DOA needs to change at the base level, which includes the triangle system. However, what I'd like to see is a step back to the multiple stun system we had before, then add to it...

Instead of virtually every attack inflicting the same stun on counter hit, I'd like to see 3-5 different stun types. Bring back limbo stun, add to that stumble stun we saw in DOA4, and then maybe include a couple more stun types. Of the recommended 5 stuns, only one would allow you to counter out, but this is the most common stun. You can't counter out of any of the other stun types, but you also can't extend the stun. So it's either you risk getting countered and go for the normal stun, or you stun and launch (or throw?) in a situation that nets you less damage, but removes the opponent's ability to counter.

I think my main issue with DOA4 is that there's a way out of EVERYTHING. You got counter hit? No problem, just counter out. You're in a stun and about to be launched? No problem, just counter that launcher or use a low counter if the launcher is high (which also avoids extending the stun with high attacks). The opponent has you in a frame trap (the 1 or 2 that existed in DOA4) and is going for a throw setup? No problem, just attack to beat out the throw. There is rarely a situation in DOA4 in which the attacker and defender are not on virtually equal ground, and that needs to change.

Look at how DOA4 evolved. By the end of the competitive life cycle, the main setups were crushes (avoiding the counter system), uncounterable setups off of knockdowns (avoiding the counter system), and connecting with whatever your setup was that led to the knockdown for the uncounterable setup. In DOA5, the counter system needs to be adjusted, or we need the ability to get around it with viable options.

We got limbo stun... now just add the rest.

 

[DriftSlave]

you know if shit don't change the game will just be about fishing for Limbos....and punishing those attempts...uhhg

 

[Chris Harris]

I would just like to state that the punch parry in general is a pretty poo reversal lol.

I mained Hitomi and the punch parry while it parried all high/mid punch attacks it was pretty much leaving you at neutral. I guess you could call it a free guess? Giving her three parries would pretty much be nerf (though I wouldn't mind too much to be honest). All the punch parry did was give her more of a chance in the really messed up system because Hitomi had to work hard to get damage in general.

Her sweep was not a "real" stun. You could literally block after being hit by it but most people countered anyway. Her 6k was her fastest mid but compared to any of the "good" characters she was even or slower by a frame. Her 6k could also be crushed by the more super evasive crushes. So all you could really do was throw parry bait out after a string because all of her strings go mid > high or mid >low so most of the time people would fuzzy guard her (good players).

So the only thing you are left with is her 3kp string starter and sweeps to inflict damage (which is also just a mid > high). What made her strong was the ability to use her weakness against you and bait punch parries so she could get advantage to work a throw mix up (which her throw game was "ok")

 

[DrDogg]

Forced tech setups for uncounterable attacks no longer seems to work. The grounded opponent seems to be invincible until they're fully standing (at least 20 frames), which means that any attack you attempt goes right through them. If you're going to leave the ability to force tech in the game, at least let me use it to my advantage. That was the one good thing about DOA4.

 

[ScattereDreams]

- Restore ability for winner to continue actions/movement after KO

I'm not understanding the reasons behind this?

one input chance for you break using the same input as the one used on you.
High counter throws inescapable.

Wouldn't this be similar to VF throw break system? Except in VF you can input multiple throw escapes (4 being the max). Although I do agree that this is how we punish in DOA and, it'll only create more guess/guess win bs.

Someone said not every string for all the characters needs to be delayed. I agree and, think that should be added. I was wondering if they could make it "not so easy" to knock someone into a dangerzone or, make it a certain number of times a person is knocked into a dangerzone before it's activated. It's bad enough we start positioned like 5ft away from DZ's.

 

[x Sypher x]

I'm not understanding the reasons behind this?

I think it's because some people like to taunt their opponents or do a downed attack after each round.

 

[Berzerk!]

Again, keep the offtopic posts off the thread. I'd also suggest avoid speculating about completely new features never featured in a DOA before at this point. This thread is about feedback of the existing demo.

MODS - can you please REMOVE irrelevant posts from the thread.

So over the last few pages the only addition to the main post I could find to make are added by DrDogg as below.

I will not add lengthy statements and conjecture and I will not add comments from people who clearly who have not TESTED THE ACTUAL DEMO. That is not feedback, that is armchair commentary and invalid.

- There are features in the demo that require the Right Analog Stick. Some arcade sticks do not have a Right Analog Stick, making these features difficult or impossible to use. Please provide other ways to access these features.

- Some other fighting games require the use of specific buttons for various features (text chat in Soul Calibur 5 is done by pressing L1). Some arcade stick owners only have 6-button sticks, or remove the last two buttons from their 8-button sticks. This makes it difficult/impossible to use features like this. Please allow us to change the button config of options like this.

 

[Darrell]

Ability to completely pull yourself back up on to the ledge.

 

[Raansu]

Ability to completely pull yourself back up on to the ledge.

Hell no.

 

[Berzerk!]

there's no point in getting back off the ledge, you want to see the next part of the stage and it doesn't make a difference to defender's damage - they either succeed in avoiding extra damage or they don't.

What I think I will put in there though is something mentioned on Facebook:

When an opponent escapes a throw from a ledge grab, it should not do any damage to the attacker. Escaping is reward enough.

 

[Berzerk!]

Added to first post a couple of things from other threads that had been discussed, will refine the first post a bit more later as there's some redundancy:

- Throw escapes: Add input throw escapes for throws, high counter throws/opponent in recovery inescapable.
- Decrease the hitbox and remove stun from Wakeup kicks. All wakeup kicks should be unsafe on block.

 

[ScattereDreams]

- Throw escapes: Add input throw escapes for throws, high counter throws/opponent in recovery inescapable.
- Decrease the hitbox and remove stun from Wakeup kicks. All wakeup kicks should be unsafe on block.

Making all wake up kicks unsafe on block won't really do much if throws (what we use to punish) are escapable lol?

 

[x Sypher x]

Making all wake up kicks unsafe on block won't really do much if throws (what we use to punish) are escapable lol?

Well I guess depending on the recovery frames of the wake up kick (after being blocked) the opponent could probably punish with an attack instead (if fast enough).

 

[DrDogg]

- There are features in the demo that require the Right Analog Stick. Some arcade sticks do not have a Right Analog Stick, making these features difficult or impossible to use. Please provide other ways to access these features.

- Some other fighting games require the use of specific buttons for various features (text chat in Soul Calibur 5 is done by pressing L1). Some arcade stick owners only have 6-button sticks, or remove the last two buttons from their 8-button sticks. This makes it difficult/impossible to use features like this. Please allow us to change the button config of options like this.

What about this:

Forced tech setups for uncounterable attacks no longer seems to work. The grounded opponent seems to be invincible until they're fully standing (at least 20 frames), which means that any attack you attempt goes right through them. If you're going to leave the ability to force tech in the game, at least let me use it to my advantage. That was the one good thing about DOA4.

Also...

- Throw escapes: Add input throw escapes for throws, high counter throws/opponent in recovery inescapable.
- Decrease the hitbox and remove stun from Wakeup kicks. All wakeup kicks should be unsafe on block.

You can't add throw escapes without making some adjustments to throws or providing more details. What would be the escape window and can you buffer a throw escape while holding block? Right now you can't do ANYTHING while holding block without canceling the block animation. If you have to release block to input the throw escape (like MK9), it basically makes them useless.

I don't mind wakeup kicks being unsafe, but they should have enough push back so that you can't just get easy throw punishment from them. I prefer the VF method of having the wakeup kick being negative on hit (I'm thinking -4) and evaded by a properly timed sidestep.

 

[DriftSlave]

I know this is hard to do in DOA but....Like in SCV I want to ask if they can have every stage neutral, what I mean by that is...Player 1 has no danger zones directly behind him/her while player 2 does or vise versa. This is a problem because one player already starts off at a disadvantage. In SCIV there were stages that had P2 starting near a ring out and all P1 had to do was score 1 combo or clean hit for that matter to win the round, Project soul changed that in SCV where every stage starts off neutral.

In past DOA games this was a problem too...such as Crimson in DOA2/U2 however most of the other stages in U2 were reset to neutral , the Demo stage has this as well with 2 Generators on the P2 side, which on hit gives a extended combo from the explosion. while on the P1 side there is no such thing, just a normal wall danger zone. I'm not sure how other people feel about this...or they are looking into other matters...such as reworking the Oki game or holds in stuns, or balancing out stun properties.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Forced tech setups for uncounterable attacks no longer seems to work. The grounded opponent seems to be invincible until they're fully standing (at least 20 frames), which means that any attack you attempt goes right through them. If you're going to leave the ability to force tech in the game, at least let me use it to my advantage. That was the one good thing about DOA4.

Could you clarify that for me? It sounds like it's the same, in DOA4 you couldn't hit someone until they were fully standing anyways. The unholdable setups were if your attack frame was on the frame of them returning to standing - hence they could not hold. It's possible the changes to the attack frame data or the wake-up animation timing have been changed and we just don't know the formula at this time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but just would like some clarification on how you came to that conclusion.