Free Step Dodge

Grapplers generally have slower strikes than the rest of the cast. Having a tool that makes up for that shortcoming (not to mention a tool that can define them as Grapplers aside from high throw damage). Could also be that someone at TN had a brilliant idea on to mess up the triangle system and the rest of the devs liked it.

I'd imagine it's the latter. It bugs me mostly because of getting screwed over at disadvantage by someone attacking after getting hit (6P from Hayate, -12 on hit and I'm getting punished for moving after HITTING someone because it's a grappler?).

Never you mind that Hayate doesn't get these vortex situations without some sort of wall splat and even then he doesn't have something to

Just realized that second sentence is horribly worded. *Having that tool makes up for the striking speed shortcoming.

Constantly, keep the opponent from 1. Wake up kicking and 2. To make them consider attacking from disadvantage because blocking = a reset in to the situation. I'm specifically talking about Bayman right now but I'm gunna go ahead and say it. Without the penalty of frame advantage on hit... a grappler can make a incorrect decision on throwing an OH and make it out alive, because he's at advantage... on hit.

Why is it ok for them to be able to spam 66T until it works while we sit there trying to poke them to death until we lose out from hesiation, frame difference, or just the smart choice of blocking when knowing on NH you're at disadvantage... I just don't understand why this is... OK.

and that's even before we talk about how an OH absorbs high and mid attacks (as well as half crouch moves). So the guess is not... high, mid p, mid k, or low, it's simply standing and half standing vs low...I don't... I just don't get it.

The wording was alright, or understandable at least. I think they should be unique too but the balance of how they can play with those seems a bit ridiculous vs how other characters (aside from my main: Ko.ko, JL without the DG spam, Zack, Hitomi, Eliot, Ryu (His OH's are just small damage), and more). It seems... a little messed up.

For the most part OHs beat out highs. There are the ones that beat out mids as well and those tend to be more difficult to deal with. it is incredibly unfair at times that you have to deal with losing advantage because someone wanted to throw you and you wanted to hit them.

Also: Alpha's 8T beats out Hayate's 2/8 P+K and will almost always be high counter. Just found that out now two times in a row.

It's not really the high or mid that OH's worry about. They work as throws that have hold properties... in other words, just like with a throw, it's a 50/50, you catch standing guard or crouching guard... except beyond that you can catch standing attacks or crouching attacks as well.

That is the 50/50 and the 50/50 only comes if--

-started that sentence wrong- The 50/50 is only completely ignored by risking Hi-Counter yourself... which promotes more attack out of disadvantage by giving the opponent a shot at Hi Counter as well... but you can't even simply guard and hang out for a second because that OH will take you guard as well... it's just the ultimate tool.

Simply put: Their attacks are too slow to get any other sort of opening, so they get offensive holds.

I'll remember next time I play Kasumi against Kasumi as Hayate. Apparently it only takes a 1 frame difference for a character to need an extreme tool seeing as Bayman's difference in speed is about 1 frame on everything except lows. Forget the fact that he has parries as well... man -.-