Gill Hustle VS Dr. Teeth FT10 matches please comment!

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
Hey all,

Dr. Teeth and I got in some matches at my store Saturday and while we were both dusting off DOA skills, Teeth wanted advice for his Helena.

Since I know NOTHING about her, I wasn't much help but KNEW there were situations where he could have preformed better.

Say what you will about my purple princess :ayane: , but could someone knowledgeable toss out :helena: tips? K thanx



 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
Edited your media links to link the FSD media pages you submitted. Since you didn't submit the third one I put in the code for youtube links.

For reference, the medio code is on the right of the media's page in our media library. Typically,

Code:
[medio]#[/medio]

Where # is the media number in the database.

For youtube links, you simply put

Code:
[media=youtube]#[/media]

Where # is the youtube video url section listed after ?v=. Typically it's a 6 to 8 digit random assortment of letters and numbers.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
When I tried watching the matches it was extremely laggy for me. I don't know if it was my connection or the recording. I can look at the matches later hopefully they are fine. I can give simple basic tips nothing advanced, though.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
These matches are chopping extremely hard. I can't tell what is going on. Are these videos chopping up bad for anyone else? I can't really help if I can't see anything.
 

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
Edited your media links to link the FSD media pages you submitted. Since you didn't submit the third one I put in the code for youtube links.

For reference, the medio code is on the right of the media's page in our media library. Typically,

Code:
[medio]#[/medio]

Where # is the media number in the database.

For youtube links, you simply put

Code:
[media=youtube]#[/media]

Where # is the youtube video url section listed after ?v=. Typically it's a 6 to 8 digit random assortment of letters and numbers.


Yeah well you know me when it comes to some of these computer things ;) everything can be like 0010001 from the Matrix. But thanks for fixing it for me.

@ Allen
Idk everything seems fine cuz I'm looking at them from FSD right now. Maybe it's a flash plug-in thing cuz I'm clueless.
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
Video is playing fine for me. Only "choppiness" is the loss of frames from going 60 captured to 30 displayed in youtube. It's still watchable though.

Make sure your video graphics drivers and flash player are up to date.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
Dr Teeth: I would suggest first you do her exercise enough until you get comfortable enough using her other tools. You really weren't doing anything with her, nothing that you were supposed to be doing.

For starters, :P+K: is one of your best friend with her, it is a very good crush move and it launches. You kept on doing, actually, you only launched with her 9:K::K:. That move is unsafe if it is blocked or wiffed. Then you have to look at the character that you are throwing that mid-kick at. Every time you launched with that move you got a decent amount of damage, if you didn't miss the juggle. But when Ayane held that move the damage she gave to you is in no comparison to what you did to her.

The point is, Ayane is not one of the characters to just throw mid-kicks at freely, most Ayane players look for any type of mid-kick being thrown ( as Gill kept doing to you) if it's launching them or not because of the juggles that she can do along with the damage output of those juggles.

You also have start using the main tool that makes her a great character, her Bokuho stance. The bokuho throw, the duck that allows her to duck all highs and mids (can't remember the name) but :2: :2:, :6::6::P: (crushes and launches on normal hit), :6::K: (launches on counter hit). These are just a few good things that she can do out of the stance.

:6::6::P: from the Bokuho stance, although it is a crush move and launches on normal hit, the move is slow and unsafe if it is blocked or wiffed. Still with these draw backs, it is a decent move to do to mix up with.

:6::K: (16i) in the Bokuho stance is a little faster than :6::6::P: (18i) but the kick is a mid-kick so you will have to watch what characters you throw that move at. Hitomi, Kasumi, and Ayane off the top of my head are the characters you want to watch how many times you launch them with mid-kicks.

When you knock your opponents down stop trying to do jumping kicks or punches to counter blow the wake up kicks. If you do manage to land a jumping kick it gives a counter blow and the damage is sorry. If you land the punch it gives a stun which forces a 50/50 mix up.

Helena does fairly good with her kick holds. Her High Kick hold gives her 60, 75, and 90 points of damage and she picks up enviromental damage from it on exploding floors (103 points on high counter hold). Her Mid Kick hold gives her 60, 74, and 89 points of damage, and her Low Kick hold gives her 60, 75 and 90 points of damage and she picks up enviromental damage from this one as well (103 points on high counter hold).

*The 3 different numbers for damage points is based on which hold you do. More points are given for a High Counter hold. Your timing on your holds depend on which hold you do.

So the trade off of you doing a jumping kick or punch is a bad idea compared to what you can do by making proper reads on which wake up kick is coming.

Take her into sparring and explore her more if you haven't, watching the videos, to me, it just seemed like you were rushing to press buttons. Not giving any real thought into what you wanted to do. Mainly because you don't know how to fully play Helena, so I understand that.

If you have a Xbox GT I could possibly help you with her more. Going to school full time and other activites doesn't grant me the time to sit and really play any game that much. But I can help whenever I am on, if you want?
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
You also seemed to be overusing :2::P: as well. I really have no understanding as to why you would do that as it doesn't net her anything good, is vulnerable to mids, has no string pressure options, and is just as slow as going into bokuho duck. BKH can really put some fear into the opponent as the pressure from that can change the flow of the match. Especially if you get into her BKH loop - which honestly is a better loop than even Dead or Alive 3 Bass' Pickup as there's no breathing room and your options are either a throw that repeats to the same situation or a mid-crush-launching kick that has a follow-up string that can go right back into a loop. Sure in DOA3, Bass' pickup loop did more damage but if he guessed wrong he was easily punished for a good chunk, this one gives her options after her misreads to continue pressure.

Honestly, I hate fighting Helena. I'd take any fight over a ninja any day as Helena I think is the character that has knocked me out of tournaments the most.
 

Dr. Teeth

Active Member
Standard Donor
Thanks for the feedback! You guys have been a huge help. Do you have any tips that aren't Helena specific? For instance, I have a tendency to guess with counters far more often than I should, which is something I'm working on. Can you think of any other general stuff that could use improvement?

Allan - My GT is pharaoh of funk. I don't have xbl gold at the moment and am waiting for a paycheck before I can renew it, but I'll definitely add you. As someone who has to travel a lot for work I totally understand not having that much time to play, but I'd love to be able to get a couple of games in whenever.

Mr. Wah, could you explain her bokuo loop a little bit more? This is the first I'm hearing of it.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
The Bokuho loop is OD, and it is the same setup for all the characters. All characters except her have to switch up there juggles or moves to force untechables for certain weights. All Helena has to do is get off that Bokuho throw and the rest is history. Once you pull of the Bukuo throw you press 1:K::K: or you can press 1:K: and slightly delay the next :K:.

Doing the first setup :1_:1:K::K: forces your opponent to make an immediate decision and with no room for error, like none whatsoever. If there is error you get a nice counter blow for great juggle damage or you can apply the throw again and go right back into the same untechable situation.

Doing the second setup 1:K::2_::1::K: this setup sets up an unholdable and the opponent is left with a little breathing room to read what you are going to do. But not after falling for the unholdable launching punch several times will they start actually reading what you're doing. Then once they get hip to the unholdable punch you can then free cancel out of the stance and go back into it (throw) and start the setup all over again. You can also do other moves in this setup as well but Helena is little easier to read because of the slow setup.

With those two setups alone make her beyond annoying as shit, you can literally destroy people with this. If your yomi skills are top notch the only players that will be able to get you off them are players that can think on par with you. Even still the best players can and will fall victim to this setup.

whenever we do get the chance to play I can show you first hand why this setup is ridiculous.
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
The guessing with counters isn't too much your fault, as the system forces you to play that game.

What you should be trying to do is instead of trying to just win, try to get a win by using bokuho evade or crushes more than throwing a hold.

I'm not too familiar with her so I don't know her moveset. Primarily it's set up from her BKH throw. From there you get a guaranteed 1KK immediately after it that force-techs the opponent. I don't remember if it can be stringed back into BKH or you just initiate it again but it's basically a mix up between her launching kick which gets you a juggle (and I would guess there's a way to do the same force-tech but I don't know it) or the BKH F+P. The Kick Launch also can string into a low kick that goes into BKH all over again, prime for string delay, evade, etc.

Allan may know more about it than me.
 

Dr. Teeth

Active Member
Standard Donor
Hey guys,

Just wanted to thank both of you for all the advice! I practiced what you told me, and played Gil again this past Saturday. I felt like I definitely upped my game, and Gil agrees. I've still got stuff to work on, but this is definitely a step in the right direction. Thanks again for all the feedback!
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
Although I do agree with what Allan said. You definitely want to get familiar with her Bakuho stance and learn her mixups while she's in it. Definitely try utilizing her mid punch launcher more often, :P+K: i believe it was. It crushes highs and mids, and it's also safe on block. So if you really want to be ballsy you can do it a second time if you think he might be stupid enough to try and throw punish you lol. Also, like he said, definitely try adding her :6: :K: from her Bakuho in your mix ups. I can't tell you how many times that has gotten me. Most people will expect a mid punch launcher, me for example, and forget about that one. I also noticed that you sometimes did a juggle that ends in a mid kick and leaves you in a back-turned position, similar to Ayane when she does certain moves. I don't know the string but i'm sure you know what i mean. From that stance you have the option of rushing down your opponent by doing :6: :6: and pressuring him with a variety of mixups. Because most likely, because the kick knocks back and creates a bit of distance, he/she will usually just stand right up rather than doing a wake up kick, or tech the fall right away. Now if you knock them against a wall then you definitely want to back away. It all depends on the situation and how well you can read your opponent I guess. Another similar situation is where after you knock down an opponent you can force tech them with, I think it's :1: :P: :P: . You can do the same thing there. Or you can do :1: :P: and then :2: :K: (i think). That will put you in her Bakuho stance. Like I said it all depends on the situation, and what you want to do. Also try getting used to backing away from a downed opponent to see what he/she might do. If timed correctly, and if far enough, you can do her charge punch immediately after a wake up kick. I think it's :4: :P+K: . That's all I can think of right now. Although I don't know much about Helena, I think this is all fairly accurate. Feel free to correct me Allan.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
:P+K: is not safe if it is free cancelled. Helena is at -15 on guard and if she does the follow up punch she is at a -11 on guard. With :P+K: people have to respect the follow up. That move is not safe in any way. If people aren't able to punish that, it is becuase it is online, offline is another story if someone is caught free cancelling that move. Still, :P+K: is a great move.

You do not want to rush down anyone with Helena back facing, not an experienced player I should say. Ayane is a lot more mobile than Helena in a back facing stance. Ayane can get away with that, Helena not as much. Against someone who doesn't know any better, ok, go ahead. A player that is well seasoned, not a very good idea to rush down with that. Over the majority of her moves from back facing are unsafe. Her back facing stance is not useless, it's just not meant to be used as a "rush down" tatic.

He shouldn't be doing any charge attack to beat out a wake up kick. His reward would be greater if he reads the wake up kicks and holds them. That charged attacked is not guaranteed damage but, a hold is. You could do a charged attack to bs around but not as a serious tatic to blast wake up kicks.

None of the infromation you provided is solid. You repeated some of what I already advised and then did your own thing. You gave scenarios on "depending on the situation" and not enough actual factual information that could be useful to him.
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top