System How long does a frame gap would be matter for holders?

[Low-pitched_Ala]

My title might not be easy to understand, let me explain it now. After play DOA 5 for a while, I figured out rhythm is really important in game. by say rhythm, I mean delays or inputs with no timing in combo or juggles,by say frame gap, I mean the frames# between this strike and another stike or throw or OH.
And because of that here the question come: for the same type strike or throw or OH, how many frame gap is enough to ok use another one? For example, when kokoro do a combo like,46p,8p6p,it cause a sit down stun ,but if opponent SE very fast, they can avoid any guaranteed follow up launcher, since its only +17.But if we use 46p,p+k,it gives opponent a faint stun , and if we use 6p after,it is +17, and if use 66p,it is +18, and here we can do her quickest launcher 6kp(wait, why in sit stun we also have +17 but we can not use this launcher?), so if frames does not matter for holds why would we not just use p+k instead of 8p6p, since the 6p in 8p6p string is almost no dealy(bad,but I would like to point out in bt stance,the last 6p in p6p6p has more dealy!) and even it cause a sit down stun ,opponent can still SE and avoid any launcher. However, 8p and p+k has 6 frames gap, and I think it might be matters for holds. So we still could use 8p here?

I know some times, you have to use 8p, like when the frame advantage only has +18(66p), but here I mean when you have enough frame advantages like 46p(+27). Also sure I know we need use mids, but here what I say is if you want use upper hits. Ok, this might be a bad example to start, let me pull off another more typical situation that frame gap might be matters. Still, kokoro, if she do a combo like 46p,236p+kp,here we can use mid punch launcher 33p+k(21)(that's shown in EMPER0RC0W's combo video)and 33p(18)instead of a CB(20), but here I think the frame gap might be not enough for the opponent to react, since its only has at most 2 frame gaps. and opponents tend to hold you mid CB at that time.

However,if we say hayabusa,or alpha, when they get to some level two Threshold or all level three threshold, they both can use a comparatively quick mid punch launcher, for hayabusa it's 3p(15),and alpha it's 6p(13), so compare to their CB(20)(alpha's mid punch CB), it has a fairly lagre gap, for hayabusa it's 5 frames, and for alpha it's 7 frames! So I think it is enough to use it when you want to do a quick mid punch launcher. not only the frame gap is huge, but also both of them has some scary throw, so the opponents tend to not hold immediately, even if they tend to hold immediately they may hold the upper launcher or mid kick launcher, since hayabusa's upper launcher is 8p(14)and 8k(16),4k(15) and his mid kick launcher is 334k(14)and 6k(15). If we use mid punch launcher quickly it's less likely would be hold(because they may think you can not perfom a CB at this time, since it's kind slow(20 frames) and normally people don't do a mid punch launcher while in level two or three threshold) .

So what's your opinion? how many frame gap is enough to use at another same type strike or even throw or OH?

 

[tokiopewpew]

Ok, I am not sure if I understand what you're actually asking for, but I'll try to give you an answer:

My title might not be easy to understand, let me explain it now. After play DOA 5 for a while, I figured out rhythm is really important in game. by say rhythm, I mean delays or inputs with no timing in combo or juggles,by say frame gap, I mean the frames# between this strike and another stike or throw or OH.
And because of that here the question come: for the same type strike or throw or OH, how many frame gap is enough to ok use another one? For example, when kokoro do a combo like,46p,8p6p,it cause a sit down stun ,but if opponent SE very fast, they can avoid any guaranteed follow up launcher, since its only +17.But if we use 46p,p+k,it gives opponent a faint stun , and if we use 6p after,it is +17, and if use 66p,it is +18, and here we can do her quickest launcher 6kp(wait, why in sit stun we also have +17 but we can not use this launcher?), so if frames does not matter for holds why would we not just use p+k instead of 8p6p, since the 6p in 8p6p string is almost no dealy(bad,but I would like to point out in bt stance,the last 6p in p6p6p has more dealy!) and even it cause a sit down stun ,opponent can still SE and avoid any launcher. However, 8p and p+k has 6 frames gap, and I think it might be matters for holds. So we still could use 8p here?

When you compare possible follow-ups for a move, you also have to take a look at what kind of hit level the attacks you're thinking about have and what you want to achieve with the stun. After 46p, you have the following things available and to consider:

8P6P - 8P is a high that can be evaded by immediate low holding. It's follow up 6P is a very slow mid that can be countered or sidestepped. However, it grants you a sitdown stun, so risk / reward ratio looks kind of equal to me.

P+K - This is a high than can be also avoided by immediate low holding. Your reward (the faint stun) is a good option if you want or need to inrease the stun level, because you cannot use fast launchers (for quick damage) due to the stun animation but the opponent also cannot hold and prevent a stun increase.

6P - Is a relatively fast mid punch. Many players like to hold mid punch when stunned so it might be a bit risky to use but it still seems to be the best option if you want to increase the stun level for reaching the threshold.


That means, 8P and P+K will give you a different result on hit and therefore different opportunities, paired with less or more risk of losing the advantage.

I know some times, you have to use 8p, like when the frame advantage only has +18(66p), but here I mean when you have enough frame advantages like 46p(+27). Also sure I know we need use mids, but here what I say is if you want use upper hits. Ok, this might be a bad example to start, let me pull off another more typical situation that frame gap might be matters. Still, kokoro, if she do a combo like 46p,236p+kp,here we can use mid punch launcher 33p+k(21)(that's shown in EMPER0RC0W's combo video)and 33p(18)instead of a CB(20), but here I think the frame gap might be not enough for the opponent to react, since its only has at most 2 frame gaps. and opponents tend to hold you mid CB at that time.

The things I wrote above also apply here. The frames play an irrelevant role in this case. Both attacks will hit mid and have almost the same speed. Bot 33P+K and 33P will launch at the threshold and therefore allow you to deal additional damage for sure if they hit, but depending on the move, the launch height and damage might differ, so you have to see which one will give you more reward.

However,if we say hayabusa,or alpha, when they get to some level two Threshold or all level three threshold, they both can use a comparatively quick mid punch launcher, for hayabusa it's 3p(15),and alpha it's 6p(13), so compare to their CB(20)(alpha's mid punch CB), it has a fairly lagre gap, for hayabusa it's 5 frames, and for alpha it's 7 frames! So I think it is enough to use it when you want to do a quick mid punch launcher. not only the frame gap is huge, but also both of them has some scary throw, so the opponents tend to not hold immediately, even if they tend to hold immediately they may hold the upper launcher or mid kick launcher, since hayabusa's upper launcher is 8p(14)and 8k(16),4k(15) and his mid kick launcher is 334k(14)and 6k(15). If we use mid punch launcher quickly it's less likely would be hold(because they may think you can not perfom a CB at this time, since it's kind slow(20 frames) and normally people don't do a mid punch launcher while in level two or three threshold)

They way you are thinking here is correct, of course, you can go for a quick launch by using a mid punch. You just have to figure out if you opponent likes to hold mid at threshold in general or if he will rather slow escape and wait for the CB's (in most cases) telegraphed animation and then tries to hold.

Just like at the other examples you mentioned above, it all mainly depends on how you would estimate your own risk / value ratio. When you choose to go for a mid punch at threshold, would you prefer to use one that is faster but will give you less reward due to not allowing long damaging juggles after it or would you prefer to go for a slower one (the CB) that will give you a lot more opportunities and reward if it hits? That's a question you have to answer by yourself and depending on how the opponent plays.

 

[Low-pitched_Ala]

Ok, I am not sure if I understand what you're actually asking for, but I'll try to give you an answer:



When you compare possible follow-ups for a move, you also have to take a look at what kind of hit level the attacks you're thinking about have and what you want to achieve with the stun. After 46p, you have the following things available and to consider:

8P6P - 8P is a high that can be evaded by immediate low holding. It's follow up 6P is a very slow mid that can be countered or sidestepped. However, it grants you a sitdown stun, so risk / reward ratio looks kind of equal to me.

P+K - This is a high than can be also avoided by immediate low holding. Your reward (the faint stun) is a good option if you want or need to inrease the stun level, because you cannot use fast launchers (for quick damage) due to the stun animation but the opponent also cannot hold and prevent a stun increase.

6P - Is a relatively fast mid punch. Many players like to hold mid punch when stunned so it might be a bit risky to use but it still seems to be the best option if you want to increase the stun level for reaching the threshold.


That means, 8P and P+K will give you a different result on hit and therefore different opportunities, paired with less or more risk of losing the advantage.




The things I wrote above also apply here. The frames play an irrelevant role in this case. Both attacks will hit mid and have almost the same speed. Bot 33P+K and 33P will launch at the threshold and therefore allow you to deal additional damage for sure if they hit, but depending on the move, the launch height and damage might differ, so you have to see which one will give you more reward.



They way you are thinking here is correct, of course, you can go for a quick launch by using a mid punch. You just have to figure out if you opponent likes to hold mid at threshold in general or if he will rather slow escape and wait for the CB's (in most cases) telegraphed animation and then tries to hold.

Just like at the other examples you mentioned above, it all mainly depends on how you would estimate your own risk / value ratio. When you choose to go for a mid punch at threshold, would you prefer to use one that is faster but will give you less reward due to not allowing long damaging juggles after it or would you prefer to go for a slower one (the CB) that will give you a lot more opportunities and reward if it hits? That's a question you have to answer by yourself and depending on how the opponent plays.

First, I am regret to reply you this late, since I guess this question really takes time to explain, and I am lazy about it.

Then, I have to say you did not understand what I am asked for, might be the language, since English is not my first language,there might be some words misused by me, sorry again. I think I should change the question to: how long the frame gap would effect holds rather than how many. It might be more accurate this way.

Ok, let me explain this more detailedly. Still, kokoro , After she do some hit that cause a deep stun, like 46p,9p or 8p, here she will have some decent frame advantage that can let her connect any her move even the opponent SE. Here If I want use some upper hits as a follow, I have many choice, like p,8p,p+k,ppk,pp,or 9p etc. And I have to declared at this moment, I know the opponent can use low hold avoid any of them , but those 1T follow up combos that I explored few weeks ago at the summer vacation gonna be very useful if they do it(I will post my combos in the kokoro thread later if I have time.) Let's get back straight to this question, so here what I am thinking is If I want use a upper hit as a follow up(sure I may use mids or lows as a follow ,but here I am just give a example use high hits, otherwise the post gonna be very long,I am confident about kokoro's combo), does the frame matter for good holder, by say good holder, I mean they judge or analyze your behavior and habit and your fighting rhythm(speed of your move or say delay or input immediately)then they choose to do a hold reaction rather than just simply guess or low hold spam. There for , like if I do a as a follow up, it will cause a +27 stun on fastest SE(the example later all on Fastest SE),and the frame of it is 10. If I use a,it +36 and frame is 15. If I do ,it is +29 and frame is 16. If I do ,it +24 and frame is 22. So here the frame gap can be 22-10=12! It is a very long time I think.And here if frame does not effect holder's decision the best choose be safely I think is if I am in the center area of the big stage,or if I am in the center area of a small stage,or close to wall. And if I want take more risk to have a longer combo I may use as a best choice(remember here I only use upper hits as a example, sure I can use mids or lows) if frame does not matter. since it cause a +36 lift stun which allow me have more option to follow up next hits. However if I use it push the opponent away and not stun as deep as , but the different frame thing it compare to and is it only 10,(and I did figure out in some situation like a CB combo it is very nice and safe to use a then immediately CB cause it's quick enough make the follow up CB hit opponent even the opponent low hold and get some time gap let the opponent's mid hold whiffed, and safer is because compare to a it has 1 point less critical damage which might be overpowered in some combo. )so if frame matter for holds, I could use p as a another option after the first stun hit.

As for the comparison of CB's frame and the another launcher 's frame , I am just use another example but same thing, and I know what you are trying to said about the risk and the reward. But still, thanks for your patient reply

So do you get what I am trying to ask for now? It's basically a question related to the relationship between hold and hit(s)'s frame data. How long at least does a frame gap really matter for holders generally? 4Frames, 5frames or 12frames etc.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Ok, let's try that again.

So here the frame gap can be 22-10=12!

Just asking to be sure: With that, you want to point out that P+K takes 12 more frames to be executed compared to P, right?

so if frame matter for holds, I could use p as a another option after the first stun hit.

Of course do frames matter when it comes to keeping your opponent in stun and incresing the stun level. Although I would say that the scenario you brought up here is a bad example to understand the differences due to being based on a deep stun.

That is because a deep stun always gives the attacker a lot more time for watching the opponent and choosing a right follow-up based on his reaction, whereas the stunned player often has to slow escape first if he really wants to hold, meaning that he cannot always "hold on reaction".

So in your example here, where you can chose between multiple follow-ups after landing a deep stun, you would simply pick the option that grants you the most damage or, if you want to be on the safe side and prevent slow escaping, your fastest option, which is your 10 frame P.

However, this is a whole other thing with stuns that aren't deep. The stunned player can often immediately hold out of it and prevent any follow-up when guessing right, whereas the offender as to hurry up and make a fast decision on how to follow-up if he want to capitalize on the stun.


That means:

Execution time of follow-ups - (the speed of the move you want to use to extend the stun). Of course does it matter. If you use a move that is too slow, your opponent can slow escape out of stun and hold. Assuming you would have landed a normal counter hit stun that gives you ~25 advantage without slow escaping, your best option would be your 10 frame P and not P+K which takes 12 frames longer to execute because every solid player will slow escape the stun before you can land it (and even hold you, if he wants).

The execution time also plays another role. If you have move that takes longer to execute or even can be delayed in it's execution, you can use this to still keep the opponent stunned if he is slow escaping or tries to hold you. If he is able to slow escape a light stun and tries to mash buttons immediately after it, a delayed (or slower) move can put him right back into stun because if will still beat him out due to being already executed.

Same if he tries to hold out of stun. If you delay your follow-up and he mistimes his hold, meaning your attack won't get countered because it hit's him after the holds active frames, he will be stunned again. So you can use a slower execution (and therefore a larger "frame gap") to keep your stun going, regardless of slow escaping and holds.

Advantage a stun grants you - That goes hand in hand with the point above. The more advantage a stun gives you, the larger can logically be the " frame gap". If a stun gives you ~25 even on fastest slow escape, you can almost use whatever move you want, regardless of how long it takes to execute.

How long at least does a frame gap really matter for holders generally? 4Frames, 5frames or 12frames etc

I'm am most likely to say there cannot be given a general answer to this question, especially not with clear figures because there are too many things that can influence that, e.g.:

• How much space is between you and the stunned opponent?
• Did your move hit and stunned him in the early frames of it's execution (meannig you would have a longer recovery too)?
• How fast is the opponent able to slow escape?
• How fast does he react to the stun and slow escape?
• When does he go for a hold if he's able to?
• How big is the advantage you get out of the stun (see above)?
• What kind of stun is it?
• How many frames take the follow-ups you could use to execute?
• Can you really use them (not always possible due to environment like uneven ground)?

I think you get the idea of. No general rule here, it rather all depends on how you and your opponent play, where you are at the stage and how good each others ability of hit-confirming, holding and slow escaping is.