Netcode discussion

[Rikuto]

"But but but console gamers don't know what a ping is, thats unintuitive!" Said bob from marketing.

 

[Berzerk!]

I hated VF5's netcode. I really truly did. Couldn't block lows for shit.

Must have been your connection to opponent. It's very fluid and quite remarkable. But limited in that you pick a character, go into the mode and play 1-on-1 with that character only, no lobby, quit out to change character.

FS should be much better.

 

[d3v]

"But but but console gamers don't know what a ping is, thats unintuitive!" Said bob from marketing.

Somewhat related, I believe it was mentioned by someone (probably Mike_Z) from Reverge that the default toolset for the the online services for consoles doesn't have any ping function.

Man, I enjoy playing this. They did well with their online, though it needs to be fleshed out more. Some type of lobby would do.

Lobby will likely be patched in. Reverge literally only had one guy working on their netcode. Off course, this pretty much shows how robust GGPO is.

Speaking of which, if they do implement rollback netcode in this game, wouldn't it be fun if it was designed so that, if it rolled back mid combo, it always favored the attacker (i.e. rolled back mid hold and allowed the attacking player to continue the combo)?

 

[Kusanagi]

Somewhat related, I believe it was mentioned by someone (probably Mike_Z) from Reverge that the default toolset for the the online services for consoles doesn't have any ping function.
Lobby will likely be patched in. Reverge literally only had one guy working on their netcode. Off course, this pretty much shows how robust GGPO is.

Speaking of which, if they do implement rollback netcode in this game, wouldn't it be fun if it was designed so that, if it rolled back mid combo, it always favored the attacker (i.e. rolled back mid hold and allowed the attacking player to continue the combo)?

don't forget about the sounds missing while in roll back... kind of annoying.

 

[d3v]

Sound is always a tricky issue with rollbacks, since you don't want to play sounds for stuff that "didn't happen" (stuff that was rolled back from). When not programmed properly, you get stuff like SF x Tekken's sound glitch where sound just cut out.

 

[Kusanagi]

Sound is always a tricky issue with rollbacks, since you don't want to play sounds for stuff that "didn't happen" (stuff that was rolled back from). When not programmed properly, you get stuff like SF x Tekken's sound glitch where sound just cut out.

it's not a very big issue, though. mainly just using sound as a sort of "hit confirm"...

 

[ScattereDreams]

I hated VF5's netcode. I really truly did. Couldn't block lows for shit.

I don't think we were playing the same VF then. I've played dozens of matches that showed connections with no bars/from different countries and all my matches were fine. Netcode is comparable to SC:V compared to other fighters.

How does Soul Calibur's lobby system work? And what's so good about the netcode? I keep hearing people mentioning it.

Lobby system is up to 6 players, host has "full" control over lobbies, you can observe from a minimized screen or fullscreen and chat. Honestly I like it more than DOA4's kiddy crap. The netcode is very good, the best IMO. I hear Skullgirls has a pretty good netcode, but I've yet to play.

 

[d3v]

it's not a very big issue, though. mainly just using sound as a sort of "hit confirm"...

Relying on sound alone can be a crutch though. Thought I guess the complaints usualy come from players who aren't used to playing in environments where their ability to hear the sounds of the game may be compromised (i.e. arcades will ill maintained cabs).

I don't think we were playing the same VF then. I've played dozens of matches that showed connections with no bars/from different countries and all my matches were fine. Netcode is comparable to SC:V compared to other fighters.

Lobby system is up to 6 players, host has "full" control over lobbies, you can observe from a minimized screen or fullscreen and chat. Honestly I like it more than DOA4's kiddy crap. The netcode is very good, the best IMO. I hear Skullgirls has a pretty good netcode, but I've yet to play.

SCV's netcode itself (the part that's in game) is helped by the game having generous buffers outside of stuff that requires "just frame" input.

As for Skullgirls, in game, the only thing better is emulated stuff running on the GGPO PC client.

 

[Kusanagi]

Relying on sound alone can be a crutch though. Thought I guess the complaints usualy come from players who aren't used to playing in environments where their ability to hear the sounds of the game may be compromised (i.e. arcades will ill maintained cabs)..

i def agree with that. i guess i'm just getting lazy these days. lol

 

[DrDogg]

Isn't VF5 often praised for having one of the best netcodes in fighting games? I'm asking since I'm not well versed in this kind of stuff, but I always see here and there someone saying "yeah, VF5 netcode is da best". I haven't tried it myself either one (VF5 or SCV netcodes).

It was good for the time, but no where near as good as SC5. VF5 netcode is better than any 3D aside from SC5, but you can't block most lows, you can't really break throws on reaction and it's difficult to hit confirm. You can do all of this in SC5.

What I would change in SCV's netcode is to take out the server and add rollbacks. Only reason SCV's netcode feels so good is because the game allows for very large input buffers (outside if just frame moves)

If anything, every fighter needs to follow Skullgirls example, rollback netcode and PING TIMES instead of bars.

Um... no. The "large input buffer" is not what allows me to duck throws on reaction and block a good number of low attacks.

Also, 2D netcode is not the same as 3D netcode. From my understanding, rollback does not work very well when you're talking 3D fighters.

The bottom line is simple. If DOA5 had SC5's netcode, I would be a HUGE improvement over DOA2U and DOA4.

Relying on sound alone can be a crutch though. Thought I guess the complaints usualy come from players who aren't used to playing in environments where their ability to hear the sounds of the game may be compromised (i.e. arcades will ill maintained cabs).

I don't know about that. These days, there are enough headsets available that if you are accustomed to playing with sound, you can go to a tournament with your headset, plug it in and have full sound.

 

[d3v]

Also, 2D netcode is not the same as 3D netcode. From my understanding, rollback does not work very well when you're talking 3D fighters.

Only difference is that they're using a client/server architecture which, isn't ideal since it requires the system to manage 2 connections (player 1 to server, player 2 to server) as compared to just 1 (player 1 to player 2) for peer to peer.

Also, there is nothing keeping rollback netcode from working in 3D. All it really is is a peer to peer implementation of the client side prediction that most other games have been using since Duke Nukem 3D.

 

[Rikuto]

That server is a boon.

Granted there are still ways to optimize it, and im not a fan of the whole "there's been a minor desync? ok, match is over" way its coded.... but you don't disconnect every match so I guess that says a lot about how having a central server can help manage connections better.

I also love how the game re-syncs completely at the start of every round. Like even if you are on the most ass of connections, the first ten to fifteen seconds are usually super playable, and then midway through the round you usually get another minor re-sync to help stabilize it.

Back in DOA 4, if your connection was fucked, your connection was fucked. It just played out that way, and you could win on your screen while your opponent won on his.

In fact this actually happened with dimensions as well on that stupid metroid level.

 

[d3v]

That server is a boon.

Granted there are still ways to optimize it, and im not a fan of the whole "there's been a minor desync? ok, match is over" way its coded.... but you don't disconnect every match so I guess that says a lot about how having a central server can help manage connections better.

Desyncs should be handled by a rollback, whether or not it's server based or peer-to-peer. The technology is there. Other genre's have been using it for years. It's about time fighting game netcodes got out of the 90s.