noob problem with grabs and attack strings

[muffinman123]

I am new to doa series in general, and I can't get used to the triangle system. I am using a grappler with 4 frame grabs, but even when I tried to grab an opponent who just finished an attack string that seems to be negative on block, I still got hit by their next standing attacks (they weren't crushing, and they weren't doing lows). I have not played a fighting game where grabs couldn't connect on a target when they are not in idle/guard state. it seems in DOA games, as long as they are pressing attacking buttons, even if they are on negative, grabs just won't work on them. I am used to fighting games where even when opponent is attacking, if my throw is faster than theirs, I can grab out of their attacks before they land theirs. can doa do this? am I doing it wrong? is this what offensive holds are for?

also, I don't have good execution so I mash quite a bit, this usually works in fighting games in general because the attack strings usually consist of at most 2 punches, but in this game the attack strings could be 5 or 6 punches, and having pressed 1 more than necessary could lead to death.
H cancel doesn't seem to help. say I already pressed P 5 times, the game already buffered it, even if I mash H on the 3rd punch animation, the 4th and 5th punches will still come out and I lose my combo or worse I get held... how do fighting gamers with bad execution deal with this problem when they 1st play DOA?

 

[Saber]

I am used to fighting games where even when opponent is attacking, if my throw is faster than theirs, I can grab out of their attacks before they land theirs. can doa do this? am I doing it wrong? is this what offensive holds are for?

Yup. OHs are the ones that 'grab' attacks because in this Triangle system, Holds beat Strikes. OH, in the end, is not a throw, but a hold.

Throws lose out to strikes, which is why you get hit even if you attempt to grab them. The only time throws are guaranteed is if you throw punish unsafe moves (since you're using a grappler with a 4-frame nuetral throw, when an attack on block is -7 or more), or if you throw them when they whiff moves up close (recovery frames except jabs usually last for 20 frames or more).
- Throws lose out to strikes in this game because all command throws are unbreakable. Neutral throws and some chain throws are the only ones that can be broken. Once you throw an opponent, that damage from the throw is guaranteed, so having them at be so risky balances out this part of the Triangle system.

And actually, DOA's execution is easy. The strings are long, but there's no problem to the execution because the buffer system is very lenient. Let's say the string is PPP6K2K. Just train yourself to hit P only three times before pressing 6K then 2K.

Going through Command Training with your specific character is a great way to train yourself execution.

If long strings are a problem, you can always opt for a character with short or no strings (Akira, Bass, Rachel, Genfu, etc.) or go for a beginner-friendly character (Momiji, Kokoro, Hitomi).

 

[Nereus]

I am new to doa series in general, and I can't get used to the triangle system. I am using a grappler with 4 frame grabs, but even when I tried to grab an opponent who just finished an attack string that seems to be negative on block, I still got hit by their next standing attacks (they weren't crushing, and they weren't doing lows). I have not played a fighting game where grabs couldn't connect on a target when they are not in idle/guard state. it seems in DOA games, as long as they are pressing attacking buttons, even if they are on negative, grabs just won't work on them. I am used to fighting games where even when opponent is attacking, if my throw is faster than theirs, I can grab out of their attacks before they land theirs. can doa do this? am I doing it wrong? is this what offensive holds are for?

also, I don't have good execution so I mash quite a bit, this usually works in fighting games in general because the attack strings usually consist of at most 2 punches, but in this game the attack strings could be 5 or 6 punches, and having pressed 1 more than necessary could lead to death.
H cancel doesn't seem to help. say I already pressed P 5 times, the game already buffered it, even if I mash H on the 3rd punch animation, the 4th and 5th punches will still come out and I lose my combo or worse I get held... how do fighting gamers with bad execution deal with this problem when they 1st play DOA?

If you have a 4f grab.... anything thats -5 or more is punishable with that grab. Some moves in DOA look - but are actually safe or positive. For example, Jacky's LOOKS unsafe, but it is actually +1 on block. That's why it is important to know what is and isn't unsafe because it can be hard to tell off of a a 1st look/reaction. And what Saber said, OH's are basically a combination of a grab and a hold, it can beat out strikes.

 

[muffinman123]

the thing is even if my opponent finishes his attack with -1 or -3 so they recover faster than I can do the 4 frame grab, as long as they are standing, they should be throwable especially when they can break throws.

if they are on -3, and they mash a 10 frame jab, I thought I should have 13 frames to do whatever I want, but my fastest punish option actually doesn't work here...

I could understand if you say combo throws can't work on a meleeing opponent because of the damage potential, but if the throw is breakable, there's really no reason not to connect the throw when I clearly have frame advantage.

this is going to take awhile before the triangle system sinks in for me...

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

strikes beating your grabs? having trouble learning long strings?
head down to your local Character Select and pick yourself up a motherfucking Bayman!

 

[Saber]

If you have a 4f grab.... anything thats -5 or more is punishable with that grab. Some moves in DOA look - but are actually safe or positive. For example, Jacky's LOOKS unsafe, but it is actually +1 on block. That's why it is important to know what is and isn't unsafe because it can be hard to tell off of a a 1st look/reaction. And what Saber said, OH's are basically a combination of a grab and a hold, it can beat out strikes.

Not guaranteed because it's only punishable by a neutral throw which is breakable, so it's a move that's -5 is semi-safe.

the thing is even if my opponent finishes his attack with -1 or -3 so they recover faster than I can do the 4 frame grab, as long as they are standing, they should be throwable especially when they can break throws.

if they are on -3, and they mash a 10 frame jab, I thought I should have 13 frames to do whatever I want, but my fastest punish option actually doesn't work here...

I could understand if you say combo throws can't work on a meleeing opponent because of the damage potential, but if the throw is breakable, there's really no reason not to connect the throw when I clearly have frame advantage.

this is going to take awhile before the triangle system sinks in for me...

Well, you don't have 13 frames to do what you want. A move is -3? You only have 3 FRAMES to do what you want, not 13. The fastest throw is only i4, no possible way will it connect. The only time you have 13 frames to do what you want is if a move on block is -13, or if recovery frames are 13 or more.

And why not? Simply because the rule dictates throws cannot beat strikes during its initial and active frames. You can only throw him if (a) he whiffs and is in recovery frames, (b) if he chooses to stand there and block, (c) he holds, (d) he's -5 or more on block.

I know it's different in other games, but it's just a matter of getting used to, which isn't too hard. The mindgames can be a bit much sometimes, but it's alright, I suppose.

 

[RoboJoe]

the thing is even if my opponent finishes his attack with -1 or -3 so they recover faster than I can do the 4 frame grab, as long as they are standing, they should be throwable especially when they can break throws.

if they are on -3, and they mash a 10 frame jab, I thought I should have 13 frames to do whatever I want, but my fastest punish option actually doesn't work here...

I could understand if you say combo throws can't work on a meleeing opponent because of the damage potential, but if the throw is breakable, there's really no reason not to connect the throw when I clearly have frame advantage.

this is going to take awhile before the triangle system sinks in for me...

Something that you should know is that strikes beat throws even before the active frames happen. Basically, strikes beat throws no matter what. You can't use throws like you can in SF or Tekken. One basic purpose of throws in this game is to act as a mix up between throws and mid strikes while at frame advantage. The other purpose is to punish holds, in which case you receive a High Counter Throw (HCT) bonus for 150% damage. There are also Offensive Holds (OH). These are actually holds but have a throw like animation and are more like throws from other games.

 

[Soaring Zero]

Mindgames are a BIG part of DOA. Don't worry, with practice and experience you'll get it. Just remember that your neutral is usually your fastest one so use that one primarily for throw punishing. Slower ones are for punishing holds or moves that are REALLY unsafe.

 

[dawgpilez]

Something that you should know is that strikes beat throws even before the active frames happen. Basically, strikes beat throws no matter what. You can't use throws like you can in SF or Tekken. One basic purpose of throws in this game is to act as a mix up between throws and mid strikes while at frame advantage. The other purpose is to punish holds, in which case you receive a High Counter Throw (HCT) bonus for 150% damage. There are also Offensive Holds (OH). These are actually holds but have a throw like animation and are more like throws from other games.

Yup. I remember thinking I could play using only OH and throws as I was/am terrible at performing 'strings'. People will easily see your simple tactics and use the winning piece (in that case throw). The better players use all 3 parts of the triangle. Unfortunately, not all the characters maximize the entire triangle system specializing in 1 or 2 pieces. Grapplers lose out on strikes which means you really have to make sure your strike game is on point while obviously using our strengths to the fullest.

Throws are mindgame and punish attacks. I would hunt for HC throws on counter whiffs as :bm You can't rely on that as from what I understand DoA5 favors striking as a means to do dmg. But this is coming from someone that plays offline vs cpu.

 

[Saber]

Playing with CPU is far from playing with an actual player. They hold you, like, 75% of the time because cheap AI loves reading moves, and landing throws on the AI is difficult because like I said, cheap AI. The exact frame you start a throw they will strike.

Luckily the AI loves whiffing holds, is way too predictable when trying to pull off a combo (they almost always go for CB with the same combo) and half the time when its striking it doesn't even know what its doing.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Hey, at least it's not vanilla CPU.

 

[dawgpilez]

Hey, at least it's not vanilla CPU.

...what if I told you it was

 

[Dr Snipe]

Ai breeds bad habits as you learn to game the Ai. I'm usually reminded of this when I play offline and set up a throw. The Ai never falls for.

Free canceling does not stop strings that have been input already. It only stops you from inputting the next move in the string, like a reset.

 

[Yaguar]

We don't duck grabs here, we them.

Quick way of saying what sabre said. Hits in start up (so those 10 frames) are immune to grabs. Opponent has to be in -X where X is your grab +1.
E.g. A -4 move is safe because they can be in start up of another during the first active frame of your grab, the frame it would land (Considering an i4 grab).

This means a grappler with a i4 throw can punish -5. If the throw is escapable though, they can break it which is actually harder in DOA than most games though.

What you will find with players though is that most of them go way way way too far into unsafe, just use something i7 unescapable. I love steam rolling people with Bayman's or Momiji's . To be fair, this isn't really a choice for them, it's DOA.