Perfect Legend has his questions answered by Team Ninja

[grap3fruitman]

So I'm assuming this is from the conference call that couldn't be talked about in more detail:

http://shoryuken.com/content/srk-exclusive-perfect-legend-interview-dead-alive-dimensions-team-4000/

After reading through this, I have only one question for Team Ninja: "Why do you hate your fans?"

 

[Matt Ponton]

To allow for SRK's exclusive, I won't quote the article here.

But, did they just say they removed throw breaks from F+P throws?

and they apparently felt that increasing the throw frames was the solution to having every attack punishable by throws, instead of - you know - decreasing the disadvantage of attacks?

 

[The HuBBs]

How is the netcode for DOA on the 3ds? Online game play is very important in this day and age.
It’s the same as for DOA4 so you’ll find no problems playing online.
You just hugely disappointed me TN.

 

[virtuaPAI]

1. Have you implemented a way to where you can sidestep/evade linear attacks?
We thought of implementing this at one stage but it felt as if this feature would spoil the goodness and purity of DOA, so we ultimately decided to let this idea go.

No it would not, in Doa3 it worked well, and the game felt Just as good as any other doa, in fact better.

2. Was there any changes to the Defensive Hold window? There are many complaints from a big portion of players about how long the window is for the Defensive Hold. Was this changed up a bit at all?
For the standard defensive hold, we have cut that down by two frames. For holds when you are in the critical state we have lengthened the timing of these up by five to seven frames so if you try to try to carelessly land a hold your risk of being thrown will be much higher.

This is not good enough. There need to be other fail safe mechanism to prevent hold abuse. Like actual hit stun frames that cannot be held out of ala doa2/doa3, that forced players to hold only within a specific time frame, and not whenever they wanted to.

3. Can you still try to throw an opponent who is in critical and nothing happens or will the defender deflect the player trying to throw? In past DOA games this was a very abusable tactic in some circumstances. I Remember in the x05 DOA4 build if you tried to throw a opponent who is in critical they would deflect you from them.
The correlation between critical and throws is the same as it was in DOA4. If you try to throw an opponent who is in critical you won’t be able to grab them but you will be able to throw them if they are doing the critical hold. The reason we have made it this way is that it would be unfair to the defender if there was nothing they could do to retaliate against the throw when they are in critical. In DOAD we have gotten rid of the ability to counter the regular throw (H+P) with another throw

.


What exactly do they mean by that? Actual throw countering, or throw escaping?

4. How fast are throws in this game frame data wise? In past DOA games they were 5-7 frames, but in DOA4 they were 5-12. We really liked and appreciated the speed of the throw in DOA2-DOA3 because of this we could punish players for doing unsafe manuevers and encouraged smarter play.
Based on our experience in DOA we decided to keep the base of DOA4. For the grappler-type characters we’ve altered the frames between four to eleven in order to make them more aggressive. OK, as the lead game designer of DOA, I would like to take this opportunity to explain as to why the system had changed in DOA4 in the first place. I don’t think that any of you ever got the right explanation for this. Up until DOA3 and DOAU there was a certain level of determined level of risk between strikes and throws in general. Basically, you weren’t able to strike with some characters as freely as you could so this led to a fairly defensive strategy where you could just throw directly after guarding everything. Taking these things into account we decided to make DOA4 more aggressive and give it more depth at the same time as well. That’s why we decided to give players more room to decide as to what kind of counter-attacks they want to do. If you take a look at DOAU, you could only counter with something like the Iizuna Drop (as Hayabusa), making the overall balance fairly weak. In DOA4, you had more chance to counter based on your opponent’s attack. I think that this gave players more chance to get better and win more.

WRONG. They do not even know their own game. As it was stated in the question,"We really liked and appreciated the speed of the throw in DOA2-DOA3 because of this we could punish players for doing unsafe manuevers and encouraged smarter play". They are also wrong in the fact of what punishment you can do, depending on said punishable move and character, it might be better to punish with an attack that launches or knock down/back, creating the depth they thought was implemented.

 

[virtuaPAI]

6. DOA4 was a very defensive game because of the lack of options to be offensive attacking wise. You could be offensive with Offensive Holds however later in the games life Offensive Holds weren't as useful because we would use moves that crouched to avoid the high ones or just used regular throws to avoid them since they were so slow. Will attacks be more relevant for being offensive in this game?
Compared to the DOA games up to now, DOA4’s main characteristic was that length of attacks was longer than before. I wouldn’t say that this made players take a more defensive stance in the game. In my opinion, up until DOAU anyone who was good at holds ended up winning the bout so I would say that this type of play was defensive more than anything. In DOA4 we increased the number of attacks, changed the frames for throws, reincarnated the offensive holds, added normal attacks which can hit the opponent on the ground, changed the way your opponent floats in mid-air, fixed the damage for critical holds, and the list goes on. What I am trying to say is that in DOA4 we made it more advantageous if you attacked. When the Champions were here the other month I noticed the way Master played. This is the way we intended DOA4 to be played and seeing non-Japanese players understand that showed us that we succeeded in our intent to make the game like this. That’s why we have kept the basic system the same for DOAD.

This is another example of TN not knowing their game. Everything that was stated in the above quote have the total exact opposite on gameplay. There is absolutely no advantage of attacking in doa4 compared to Doa2/3. Attacks in doa2/3 having different properties allowed characters to use specific attack strategies to win. Characters Had true comboes, unholdable strings, setups.etc. There were so many ways to press offence in doa2/3.

Before a lot of attacks were negative on guard making it difficult to have a real offense with real advantage instead we had to scare the opponent by using canned attack strings and creating a mind game around if we will finish the string or not finish the string. While this is a good strategy it became very apparent that this is the only way to be offensive in the game thus causing a lot of players to feel like everyone has the same playstyle and there was a lack of individuality amongst players and characters.
The team and I have been playing so many different fighting games and one thing I can say is that basically anyone can pull out a combo. I think that the beauty of DOA is the ability to play that mind game to beat your opponent. Going back to the basics of DOA, we have made the system so that anyone could play. As long as you pay attention to your opponent you neither need to pull off a really complex combo nor execute a really difficult throw to beat your opponent. The thing I want to say is that DOA gives you more options than any other fighter out there. If you use the same character over and over, yes, you will find that you will get into a repetitive cycle where you will start to use the same techniques. But if you start playing around and start to change your movement and strategy a little, this is where the individuality between players will come to play. If you still feel like there is not enough individualism here then try using Brad Wong. He’ll make each and every player feel different.

Sigh. They said a lot to say absolutely nothing.

8. Is the range for kicks when getting off of the ground the same? In DOA4 a lot of us felt that they had too much range and wasn't much risk compared to the reward when they hit. We couldn't force them to miss because of their range and we have to deal with 3 different hit levels which is a pain because the high and the middle look almost exactly the same.
Is there less invincibility? It was very strict timing to hit someone as they were performing the kicks from off the ground, and also what is their frame data on guard and are they punishable after guarding them in this game as opposed to past DOA games where they aren't punishable but they are a disadvantage.
The range of the kicks is the same as DOA4. What we have done though is bring back the down attacks (where you can hit your opponent while they are lying on the ground) from DOAU. For example, if you do Kasumi’s ↓P you can stop your opponent’s kick coming off the ground. It’s not a technique that will work every time so if you miss the correct timing you will get kicked. For mid/high kicks, I guess that players will still need to master the game a bit more to tell the difference between them, so in the meantime I would suggest to those players to block!

So nothing was done.Sigh

9. Have wrestlers been toned up? They are the only characters in the game with escapeable combo throws while non wrestlers have inescapeable combo throws. Examples of inescapeable combo throws: Hayate, Ryu Hayabusa, Kokoro.
We have toned up all the characters so you will feel there is a difference in the way that they have been balanced out. Towards the start you’ll feel that characters who were easier to play as in the past will still feel that way right now as well, but this will change more and more as you play the game. Since holds for mid punches and mid kicks have been unified under one mid-hold, non-wrestlers will actually be more difficult to use I think. In terms of escaping combo throws we didn’t make it purposely so that wrestlers have escapable throws and Ninjas and other characters inescapable throws. Kasumi and Hitomi have escapable combo throws as so do Tina and La Mariposa. We didn’t aim for that character’s characteristic to determine whether he/she has escapable throws. We focused on whether a certain technique can be escaped or not.

They really need to have more battle tested players over there to help them refine doa. For all they know, a 3 point hold did not stop non-grapplers from being any less easy to play. Since every character need to use attacks, this change affect both grappler and non grappler alike. Once again, their changes have the total opposite effect on gameplay.




until other players get to speak to TN and set them in the right direction, I have no hope of DoaD being a tournament worthy fighter.

 

[Matt Ponton]

For those who are unsure what they meant about the hold changes. According to Perfect Legend, the following are the frame changes:

Outside of critical:
0/20/10
0/20/7

Inside of critical:
0/20/15
0/20/13

 

[Fighters Fury]

So I'm assuming this is from the conference call that couldn't be talked about in more detail:

http://shoryuken.com/content/srk-exclusive-perfect-legend-interview-dead-alive-dimensions-team-4000/

After reading through this, I have only one question for Team Ninja: "Why do you hate your fans?"

actually. Carl wrote these questions before the conference call and they're just now answering these. During the Conference call it was something else. However I did send your questions over to TK and they sent them to TN;

"Hey Shelton,

I'll pass these along to the team and hopefully we can get them answered quickly."

 

[Matt Ponton]

Thanks again for doing that Shelton, although many of our questions were covered in Carl's.

I'm still wondering about their thought process for "fixing" the throw punishment system. I mean they state they felt there was a problem were you could just block any move and punish it with a throw, so instead of decreasing the frame disadvantage on blocked attacks (even to the possibility of giving frame advantage) they instead decide to break the throw system.

I just don't understand it.

Now, based on their response it seems they have also taken out the throw break of neutral grab - something that's been in the DOA series since the start of it.

I mean the throw system was good in DOA2 and DOA3, and most importantly it made sense. You had three different speeds of throws depending on input notation, damage possibility, and class. The striker class would have a neutral 5 frame throw, single/double direction 6 frame throw, and multi-direction 7 frame throw. If you wanted to "break" someone's throw you would just do a faster throw gaining Counter Throw damage. The grapplers also had an advantage where they had a 1 frame priority (4, 5, 6 frame throws in the same category).

 

[virtuaPAI]

The problem here is the fact that they are changing things and do not understand the cause and effect of such changes. Adding frame advantage to more attacks would have made throw punishment less of a problem(like it really was a problem in doa2/3), instead of throwing in a half assed OH system that do not work, and making throws slower. To add insult to injury, they removed hit stun out of the game, and replaced them with a shit load of staggers that are DH-able. Doa did not need any of those changes and would have been better off if they started back from Doa3.

I would also like to add to the fact that throws are not simply a punishment tool. It is used as an offensive tool just like attacks, something TN do not realise. , , throws into attack setups, throws into other throw setups and all its variants was used to force players to use other methods of defence other than blocking. My God is there not a lot of different ways to be offensive/defensive in Doa2/3. Their belief that throws being the "only thing to punish" ruined all that was good in doa.

I really want to know who were the people that told them that they needed to make these changes? Doa2/3 were very easy to get into and provided the same easy entry as Doa4. Doa2/3 provided the same mind games that are in Doa4, but better because players are not merely limited to just using the triangle system in that limited manner. Players were able to get better the more they actually played, as opposed to doa4.

 

[KoF06]

I hope I'm not too late for reply, take me soo much time to be sure of my translation haha

I'm still perplexed in how it will done. I'm anngry as you about the game look doa4. In contrary, I don't like there are only 3hold and no 4.
I guess I will wait to play and see how it's look like when I will try it. no break throw it's still fun to read this...
But even if it's the perfect doa, I can't believe it will a good game for competition.

However, why no question about tag mode ?
They really give up about this ? Even if one day they want to do a doa5?
Why 1F is still a crouching ?
And nobody care about desing ? Why Hayate look like an yaoi character?

This is another example of TN not knowing their game. Everything that was stated in the above quote have the total exact opposite on gameplay. There is absolutely no advantage of attacking in doa4 compared to Doa2/3. Attacks in doa2/3 having different properties allowed characters to use specific attack strategies to win. Characters Had true comboes, unholdable strings, setups.etc. There were so many ways to press offence in doa2/3.

For this reason, doa3 wasn't good for a single in my opinion. Because all character couln't be aggressive like a jann lee or gen fu.
And since DoAU DoA became an online game. I can't imagine this kind of advantage on moves on the live. You add the lag and 1st attack=win.
The base of DoA is a "scissors paper stone" system, if attack is too important it's no more a doa I think.
For myself, I really enjoyed single mode in doa4. Execpt sad characters loke bass who it's a bit difficult for win. May be for those characters, give advantage move like doa3 couln't be a good balance?

For the 2nd time they do doa remix, I hope they will do many change for a maybe doa5

 

[Matt Ponton]

You add the lag and 1st attack=win.

On the contrary, defensive holds were always 1 frame, and frame advantage never exceeded 3 frames when 10 frames is fastest attack.

I can see an issue with lag in strings like Jann Lee's where you have to react to the kick, but not in knowing is coming.

 

[KoF06]

Play with only defensive holds is a bit random no?
In that logic, Bass in doa4 isn't a low tier I guess

 

[Matt Ponton]

You do not play only with defensive holds. In DOA3, the holds are used to stop abusive attacks. They are always an option, but they are also a risk. You have to learn to react to frames to use "safely".

There is a difference between using only holds, and using holds to avoid setups and danger.

It is my belief that holds are a "tool", not made to be a "win button". Abuse of the tool should be dangerous, like abuse of attacks can be dangerous.

 

[virtuaPAI]

For this reason, doa3 wasn't good for a single in my opinion. Because all character couln't be aggressive like a jann lee or gen fu.
And since DoAU DoA became an online game. I can't imagine this kind of advantage on moves on the live. You add the lag and 1st attack=win.
The base of DoA is a "scissors paper stone" system, if attack is too important it's no more a doa I think.
For myself, I really enjoyed single mode in doa4. Execpt sad characters loke bass who it's a bit difficult for win. May be for those characters, give advantage move like doa3 couln't be a good balance?

I have to disagree. In single play, not every character need to be as aggressive as Jann Lee or Gen Fu to be competitive. Characters like Bass and Lei fang can be defensive and wait you out...waiting for one small mistake to capitalise in big ways. All the characters had their own nuances that allowed them to compete. These nuances were all based around the triangle system in a prolific way.

I agree. Holds is a tool, but not an end all solution. In past doa's holds were relegated to that position, where in doa4 holds were no longer bound and wrecked havoc to the system...not so cause of it being overpowered, but due to the fact that everything else was de-powered.

 

[Berzerk!]

Can these changes to windows be clarified? What were DOA4's again for comparison?

Outside of critical:
0/20/10
0/20/7

Inside of critical:
0/20/15
0/20/13​

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA4's were the same as all previous iterations:

Outside of critical: DOA2 damage
0/22/8
0/22/5

Inside of critical: DOA3 damage
0/22/8
0/22/5

Also, you could hold out of hit stun, guard breaks, wall crumple, and throw advantage.

Virtuapai has posted listes comparing the version changes as well. You can find them in their respective forums.

 

[Berzerk!]

20 frames active vs 22 is a very slight change, but should have an effect. Thankfully, the change to recovery, especially inside of critical, should have more impact. Looks promising, giving the attacker more control over stun advantaged situations.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Yeah, I'm not sure how much the minor changes will do until it's playtested out.

I mean the in stun hold damage helps out for the new throw system as you can probably actually punish the hold now with some throws on reaction instead of having to guess they will hold.

 

[KoF06]

I have to disagree. In single play, not every character need to be as aggressive as Jann Lee or Gen Fu to be competitive. Characters like Bass and Lei fang can be defensive and wait you out

Yeah you right ! I wasn't thinking about Bass or Lei Fang ( well Lei fang is already harder for her than Bass to play).
May be I will say something stupid, there are very long time I didn't play DoA3 but I thinking about characters like Zack, Christie, Hitomi.... I saw them like agressive but compare to a Hayate or Top tier character, it's a bit discouraging. I don't say they are unless characters since they have good combo and so on... May be 4F who can brake all middle made me angry. I don't know ^^
I just didn't have this feeling in DoA4(execpt Bass ok ok haha)


May be I'm changing the topic (I should post on an other topic?)
But I played for the 1st time to a 3ds and I'm still thinking, even if they do the best DoA as you wish, it will never a competitive game because you can play correctly on 3ds.
If the objectif is to take new fan for a may be doa5 we shoul more worry about design there are choosing than the gameplay (just a remake like doau = just unless). If the atmosphere of the game change, even if the gameplay is the same as your dream, you will still love it?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Now that SRK has lost the article, we luckily have a copy via Virtuapai's response .