The TFC Aftermatch Character Balancing Discussion.

[Crext]

Alright, this seem to be the hot topic in ALL the threads right now, so let us try and collect it all so we can get our thoughts together. Maybe we even can submit something collectively to the good folks at team ninja for future patching.

No, let us try to be objective, orderly and reasonable.

Mark your "recommendations" as this example:

Character: Rachel
Change: 2K to not force tech or 0 frame advantage.

And hit it!

 

[StrikerSashi]

2H+K doesn't force tech. It's her 17f, +1 to+5 on hit low kick. You're thinking 2K ground attack stomp.

Slow down 214P by 5 frames, and make 1PP and 7K launch much much lower.

Remove Alpha from the game.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

2H+K doesn't force tech. It's her 17f, +1 to+5 on hit low kick. You're thinking 2K ground attack stomp.

Slow down 214P by 5 frames, and make 1PP and 7K launch much much lower.

Remove Alpha from the game.

Alpha doesn't need to be removed, but she does need some level of her offense cut down. But the problem is nerfing her offense too much makes her a joke since she has 0 defensive options.

Past lowering Rachel's weight class and the raising whiff power of her Stomp, I got nothing.

 

[Drake Aldan]

I don't see any reason for any nerfs. (course Rachel main has to say this right)

I'm just not seeing a T4 Jin situation here, blatant abuse, 1 character top 8. I mean, just off the stream matches- Kitty Cola/Blackberry Chaos did not use the blender hardly at all, SonicFox and Kwiggles switched off Rachel to their mains real quick, Xcal was pushing more with Helena and Momiji than Rachel (and arguably switching to Rachel at the last moment cost him the match). That just leaves Lopedo and it's like... You gonna ban a character "cause Lopedo"? That's just hatin' yo.

I think Mamba is right. I don't see it. Back tech and sidestep.
I don't know what else to tell you.


Now Alpha, I dunno. I didn't see blatant abuse there either, a few pocket matches. How is people's experience with the matchup? Does everyone have their special featherweight combos down pat? Is the risk/reward skewed so much as to say that she should never be used?

Neither Xcal nor Lopedo went to her when it was time to get paid.

 

[Tenryuga]

I personally believe somebody should never have frame advantage when they tech roll and If they do have it should only be because a move with alot of recovery was whiffed. Rachel's stomp should not be nerfed but she should not be a heavyweight character. Her stomp grants the same situation force techs did in vanilla 5. The problem is that the ground game is such balls for most characters now that the characters that are able to maintain offense on a grounded opponent have a huge advantage. There is also the fact that some characters simply blow at following up on force techs.

The solution is simple. Buff the ground game and the characters so that EVERYBODY has solid okizeme options. That way the rest of the cast has the tools to fight on par with Rachel. As of right now only Gen-Fu ( Gen-Fu's parries and reset), Helena (Her pressure and ground game.), Bayman (parries and tank roll ), Christie (JAK to avoid grabs and OH, speed advantage) , Kasumi (Speed advantage and parries somewhat) and Ayane (ability to outspace Rachel.) have what they need to help them combat Rachel.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Leave all the characters you're bitching about alone. Then buff everyone else to their level. Everyone's happy!

 

[Raansu]

You know how to fix Rachel? You learn how to throw punish. Watching that stream made me want to cringe so much, especially in the finals where Xcal just refused to throw punish Rachel.

 

[Number 13]

Give everyone an X-Factor mechanic to radically change the character balance. What can go wrong?

 

[David Gregg]

Character balancing in general was way off before the addition of Rachel so this issue (like I said in the banning Alpha thread) goes far beyond a few tweaks to 1 character's moveset. There are 29 characters on the roster and yet how many do we really see go far (or even being used) in tournaments?

I don't think the answer is to buff everyone either. The point of balances is that they should have both strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out. A skilled player (which a tournament is supposed to test skill after all) learns to maximize his/her strengths while trying to minimize their weaknesses. This gets tricky though when you have characters who have significantly more positives than they do negatives.

So I'm not calling for any nerfs or saying ban character [__] but just making the observation that a lot of us focus too much on the ones who are on top and forget about the ones who are (and have been) at the bottom.

 

[d3v]

Not every game needs to have everyone viable for it to be considered a good game. Last I checked, only a handful of games have ever achieved that. IMO, as long as a game has about 4 top tiers and a solid supporting cast of high tiers, then it's fine.

 

[Tenryuga]

The thing is though buffing characters doesn't make it so that they are void of weaknesses. Gen-Fu will always have ass movement (though his new dash is excellent). Ayane will always be better at mid range than close range. Kasumi will always be ultra unsafe. It makes it so that they are playable. What D3V says is true but it is always better to have a game where everyone is viable. I personally think a game where every matchup is 5-5 would be pretty boring. Its great being able to outplay your opponent and win when your character is disadvantaged. What I don't agree with is having a character that is worthless against EVERYBODY.

 

[David Gregg]

I understand d3v that it's impossible to create a perfectly balanced game but it's still no excuse to say "meh...we've got about 10-12 decent/good competitive ones so let's forget the rest."

And then it makes it even worse when you see a player who has mastered a character who doesn't have as many tools as others that has taken years of work and loses to a character who has been out for less than a month.

 

[Blazeincarnated]

Give everyone an Alpha clone. Thats all you have to do.

 

[d3v]

I understand d3v that it's impossible to create a perfectly balanced game but it's still no excuse to say "meh...we've got about 10-12 decent/good competitive ones so let's forget the rest."

And then it makes it even worse when you see a player who has mastered a character who doesn't have as many tools as others that has taken years of work and loses to a character who has been out for less than a month.

Because history has shown that the only ways to do so are to either add more tools or universal mechanics or to normalize everybody by nerfing everything strong. The problem is that it's way easier to do the latter than the former.

And character loyalty is overrated. Sure we get some true character specialists who can work through bad matchups every now and then (e.g. MASTER). But IMO it's better to learn to be able to adapt and switch up than just stick to one character (even Daigo switches mains depending on what game he's playing).

As of right now only Gen-Fu ( Gen-Fu's parries and reset), Helena (Her pressure and ground game.), Bayman (parries and tank roll ), Christie (JAK to avoid grabs and OH, speed advantage) , Kasumi (Speed advantage and parries somewhat) and Ayane (ability to outspace Rachel.) have what they need to help them combat Rachel.

I like this because it shows that the game is developing heavy character specific match ups. Games like this usually end up being more interesting competitively in the long run as players are forced to play differently depending on their opponent and develop counter strategies/tech.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Because history has shown that the only ways to do so are to either add more tools or universal mechanics or to normalize everybody by nerfing everything strong. The problem is that it's way easier to do the latter than the former.

And character loyalty is overrated. Sure we get some true character specialists who can work through bad matchups every now and then (e.g. MASTER). But IMO it's better to learn to be able to adapt and switch up than just stick to one character (even Daigo switches mains depending on what game he's playing).

I like this because it shows that the game is developing heavy character specific match ups. Games like this usually end up being more interesting competitively in the long run as players are forced to play differently depending on their opponent and develop counter strategies/tech.

Speaking my language.
I always find it ridiculous when people get mad at counterpicking when every other fighting game in the community has done so(I even saw this on the stream chat) when it's basically obvious.
If you want to main a single character through and through, good for you, if you are extremely badass with your character, good for you. But having another toon or 2 on top of that works very damn well when you fight someone who knows that character too hard.

This is why I never try to main a single character as I may lose to someone over and over endlessly because they know how to stop me dead. This was why I hopped to Ayane and, Kokoro, Eliot or Helena before DOA5U and then Ayane and Momiji now. I may try to fit Helena in there but it's always best to have a backup.

And I do like how you have to switch up your attacks depending on the weight class too as it keeps adding in those mindgames and custom combos.

 

[d3v]

More on Rachel and Rachel counter-tech. Since we're seeing that there are characters and tech that can go toe to toe with her, I believe the more prudent way to address her would be to look at those and make changes that make it so that those characters and tech work better against her. This way, the game remains interesting while getting a bit more balanced, without going through the normalization which most fighters (especially 3D ones) suffer through when undergoing balancing.