Unholdable situations in DOA

[ScattereDreams]

I felt like this deserved it's own little thread because I don't think many people know about unholdables (including myself). I've been on multiple forums where I've heard of "un-holdable" situations, but never actually seen any, or knew what they were. With that said I was wondering if someone could explain them to me and give me a example? I know i've read before some characters could do them in DOA4 and still have them in DOA5.

 

[Allan Paris]

To do an Unholdable move you need to; take the recovery frames from the move you used to force tech, add what you're left on hit, then subtract that from 50 (a force tech is 50 frames) and you are left with the amount of frames needed to land an unholdable move.

Ex: Kasumi recovers in 25 frames (after her 1P), she is at a 7 on hit. So, 25+7=32 and 50-32=18. So the next move Kasumi does needs to be (at the most) 18 frames.

You also have to take in consideration of the range and hit-box of the attack. A move could have a hit-frame at the 18th frame but whiffs because the hit-box doesn't reach your opponent until the 19th frame.

These moves are unholdable because it takes 1 frame for holds to come out (they are listed as i0). The moves that are being done (unholdable) are hitting before the i1 of the defender's hold.

In DOA4 all of the characters have Unholdable moves. Some have more than others ie. Jann Lee has 2 (I think, I know he doesn't have many) while Kasumi has at least 13 of them.

You get these unholdable situations when you force tech your opponent off the ground. You can also get them with certain characters from sit-down stuns. Kasumi is the only character that has an Unholdable move that does not need a force tech off the ground in DOA4. It's her 1K and then follow up with her 6P. It is only effective against players that mash, literally. Anyone that knows slightly what they are doing you may hit them on normal hit with 6P or it will be blocked.

 

[MajesticBlue]

The frames being i1 is actually a glitch right? I wanna say somebody mentioned it during one of the streams. It makes sense if it is. So its pretty safe to assume these will be gone come Doa 5. In at least the ground game portion. From what I saw force techs were harder to get anyways. At one point I recall talk of unholdable moves at the wall though.

Whenever I made unholdables I cheated and used the Doad frame counter. They were alot of fun to mess around with and find. Its kinda sad to see them go. They played a large role in defining the tier lists and stuff from what I can tell. If getting rid of them helps balances the game I guess its only fair.

How does one find the initial recovery frames? I thought maybe you add the frames on block to however many frames the said move is. 16+10=26. That leaves this theory off by one so now I thought maybe you subtract one because of the attack coming into contact with the block. So now I thought i got this part figured out. I use the frame counter to check it and it comes up with 20. Off by 2 now. I gotta be missing a few steps or something.

Another interesting thing is I was looking was with Helena's BkoT 1K back turned 4K untechable. When I got to the add the frames on hit part unlike Kasumi's 1P; Helena's back turned 4k is a launcher on normal hit. Can you find this number by yourself or does it have to be specifically listed in a frame data book?

*Multiple Edits Later*
I just noticed force teching in Doad is actually 53 frames. That explains the 3 missing frames.
Hahah I feel kinda crazy. It sure is gonna be fun trying to learn and figure out Doa5 stuffs lol.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Yes holds being i1 is a glitch.

 

[Scott]

I would be interested in seeing a list of these moves. Major props if someone can collect the data. I know Vpai made a list of interuptible strings that I found quite handy.

 

[Jefffcore]

Jann Lee actually has an un-holdable Dragon Kick; it's not from stun, but it's not from a force tech either. If you finish a combo with 9kk and they tech it's a free Dragon Kick. If they don't tech, you're in perfect range for 2k, 1k, to force tech. In which case if 1k hits their back 4k is unholdable. I never did find something for the other side.

Busa has multiple un-holdables for every un-techable and he has an un-techable for just about every combo height. I'm sure you've seen them and not known, I know I've played you Scattered.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Here are a few off the top of my head if you guys wanna see or mess around with them.

Helena
BkoT 1KK (Unholdable 4P)
BkoT 1K4K (Unholdable back turned 66K)
BkoT 1K(2)K (Unholdable Bko 66P)

Ryu Hayabusa
After any untechable if you use 1P to force tech you get an unholdable QCFP.
If you need an untechable you can just use 6KP 8P 1K (F) 1P

Hayate
Any time you force tech with 1KK you get an unholdable 8P.
If you wanna use it off an untechable the one that gets the most use for me is 8P PPP 1KK.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Moving this to the doa4 board.

 

[Jefffcore]

Might as well just go bacon.

Hayabusa:

2p tech: 66k(becomes safe)
1P tech: 66k(becomes safe). QCFP also becomes safe.
3F+K tech: 3p, and 2p. 2p gives +1.
1k, 2k tech: 2k MUST hit their back* 1k, and 33p.
1k, 1p tech: 1p MUST hit their back* 2F+K, or 66p again.
9k tech: 6p
6kp tech: 2F+K, QCFP(becomes safe again)

Hayate:

2p tech: 3F+K
1p tech: I think it was 66p... I don't use this one
1k, 2k tech: H3p(p) (If the full string hits a mid-weight on CB 1k is an un-techable that lets you loop it again)
1kk tech: 8p, 66p.
33kk tech: P+K

I've forgotten a lot of hayate's from lack of use. 66p and 4F+K were un-holdable after others.

Zack:

2kp2k tech: 3p

Bass:

2k tech: 3P+K

Spartan:

QCBP: 46p, and possibly 2F+K

Kasumi:

1p, 6k: 6k

Ein:

8p tech: P+K

 

[Matt Ponton]

2k with bass also did f+k. Which made it safe with distance.