Rachel General Discussion

[Cla]

What are you using? You're pretty much limited to 6P/6K, anything else is too slow and you will be jabbed out.

6P tends to be my main go-to gut reaction when stomp whiffs. It's i13 though. Most chars jabs are i10. Rachel's +2 after stomp whiff isn't enough to stop wake-up jabbers.

Rachel can use 66T to complicate things, but 66T does no damage and just puts you in the same situation again- block to defend against 6KP or what have you, or attack to Hi-Counter the throw. (The only thing guaranteed from 66T is a PP stun, and then you're just playing regular DOA.)

If 66T lands as Hi-Counter, you get guaranteed 6PKP follow-up. (which leads into air grab combo when used on an opponent's back) I'm not 100% sure if 6PKP is guaranateed after normal Counter 66T.

Rachel seems to me like she's a grappler, baiting mid punch holds, without Real Grappler Damage™.

Yeah let that Leon combo vid remind you all that while Rachel has tricks, her damage is nothing compared to the other grapplers. She has to work harder than the other grapplers for actual damage. Her combos may seem cheap and annoying cause they're "easy/braindead", but the other grapplers don't even have to do nearly as long of combos to get bigger damage than what Rachel does with her seemingly-neverending air grab combos.

more frame advantage guard breaks

More? As if she has any? (besides Power Blow guard break, which is universal to all chars)

 

[Nobus3r1]

More? As if she has any? (besides Power Blow guard break, which is universal to all chars)

According to training mode 66K is a guard break that's +5 on "hit".

Also I'm noticing that at least against the computer/training dummy Rachel that a lot of the stomp hit follow-ups whiff. To me it looks like her character model is so tall that when she gets up she takes a really big step back which creates too much space. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

Would further like to add that combo-ing Alpha-152 is fun. Being able to tack 1-2 extra 9Ps after ever single launch really bumps up the damage. This matchup may suck but Alpha really can't afford to get hit either, e.g. 4PPP 66P 214P+K 9P 9P 9P T 6PK 2K (NH 135+9, HiC 169+9). Posting this last bit here because it looks like the combo thread died and/or disappeared.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Sooo... 66K.

Is this worth using anymore? +1 on block, is it even worth going for that? Normally I would pressure a teching opponent with it but +1 is nothing. Jacky gets that with a jab!
And you get 43 damage (assuming opponent is mashing) and a loss of pressure (i.e. knockback) if you guess right. I don't like it...

I am thinking run-in 2H+K is going to have to take its place.

So, what are the options, here?

I'm thinking... 3P, 4K, 66T, or another 2H+K.

How about PP2K? Same thing, but switch out 4P for 3P?

Maybe the same thing for 4P on NH (+7), too.

 

[PacManila]

Blocked 66K from a distance (about 2 back dashes away) can get you +2 to 4 frames. It's basically like Tina's 46P which is also +1 GB on block and up to +4 farther away. Can be good from mid range and when the opponent's back is against the wall.

TBH I'm not even mad about the nerf of her stomp. To me, it feels like her FT game is more like Bass's pick-up FT minus guaranteed set-ups. You have to be able to read your opponent better when it comes to whether or not they will tech roll. If you notice that they're not gonna get up after your combos, use that heel of dominance

 

[Shoraku]

They killed her.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Blocked 66K from a distance (about 2 back dashes away) can get you +2 to 4 frames. It's basically like Tina's 46P which is also +1 GB on block and up to +4 farther away. Can be good from mid range and when the opponent's back is against the wall.

Precise spacing just to get +3 more? Ain't nobody got time fo dat.

They killed her.

Eh.

Well, this is what I'll be shipping out with (this is the flowchart). Normally it would just be "go for blender" but we don't do that no mo.


CH 6P/4K/4P/1P (close)

• 3P
  • 8K, 3PPP+KT
  • 3PPP+KT
• 6K, 66T or 6K, 3P
• (6PP) (as in, start with CH 6PP)
  • 8K, 3PPP+KT
  • 3P, 66P

CH 6K/8P

• 66T
  
• 3P

CH 1P/2H+K (far)

• Dash-in 66T
• 6KP (vs a throw, the P hits Hi-Counter for an airthrow. vs a block, the K whiffs and the P is safe. Though I wonder if that's too telegraphed. I would have used P+K but it whiffs completely vs block...)

CH 3P

• 3PPP+KT
• 7K, 9K, T (I wonder if this is holdable on reaction. If they are looking for it, maybe they will get caught by the 3P?)

2H+K/PP2K/4P

• 3P (use 4P for PP2K)
• 4K
• 66T

66T

• 3PPP+KT
• 41236T

I'm thinking of using 4T to punish holds. 41236T is pretty much done for me, slower speed, slower execution, damage is even or worse to 4T on Hi-C. The only reason to use it before was Blender + 25 damage and that's all over now.

(ed. when using 3PPP+KT, the damage is pretty rad, but this move has hella wall carry, and, well... when you use it near a wall, either P+K will splat, or you'll jump up in the air and then land in a totally %^&*ed position. I'm starting to think you either 3P launch and then airthrow combo, and only 3PPP+KT in the open where you have space.)
---

Been meaning to do this, but just got caught up.

Doesn't seem like Rachel has a lot of hi-delay moves. The ones that stick out to me are:

PP followups (19 frames)
6P/4P (22 frames)

But it's not bad. I'll start using these.

( ed. actually, these are just... OK. They don't feel reliable to me. :[ )

 

[Viper Excess]

Can I ask why ppl call(ed) Rachel braindead to use? Is it because of her stomp? It leaves her at disadvantage on whiff now, not that she used to get guaranteed attacks on stomp whiff with advantage anyways. AFAIK, she had no guaranteed stomp setups because backtech eliminated all of them. I like that she makes ppl backtech and lose their wakeup kick opportunity (yes for making the opponent psych himself out!), but then it becomes a guessing game for me because if I whiff the stomp, I'm royally screwed. and If the opponent decides to wakeup kick and I don't stomp, then I get stuck (like most other characters).

Maybe TN could have left her at neutral on stomp whiff? This would have forced ppl to study her neutral game more and improve fundamentals as a result.

As an extra question to all of you guys that main Rachel, why do you main her?

 

[Drake Aldan]

Can I ask why ppl call(ed) Rachel braindead to use? Is it because of her stomp?

Yes.

Maybe TN could have left her at neutral on stomp whiff? This would have forced ppl to study her neutral game more and improve fundamentals as a result.

That makes too much sense.

As an extra question to all of you guys that main Rachel, why do you main her?

She is mai waifu.


No, but really, I downloaded Core Fighters when the game came out. Vanilla was alright but the online was crap, so I stopped playing... Since they were offering the update for free I was like "well why not?"

I had seen the promotional pictures of Rachel before; initially I just wrote her off as TN's Sarah. (Like what, another blonde?)

Anyway, I'm playing through the Tutorial, thinking "oh hey, this is pretty cool"

and in one of those lessons you play Rachel.



Well, I saw those swaying hips, and I was like

And the rest is history.


To be honest she's the only character I really like in the cast. Not to bag on DOA but nobody else really does it for me... If it wasn't for her I would probably not be playing this game.

The funny thing is I don't like her in Ninja Gaiden at all. She looks creepy there.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

I play Rachel because you couldn't (past tense) mash against her, and like black mamba stated before, DoA players will be DoA players and always try to attack no matter the circumstance... I believed the charcter was broken at first too, but my friend displayed to me that all you need to do to Rachel is use common sense. Now after seeing the effects of the recent patch, this community has shown that all they want to do is mash buttons... you can tell because they did the same thing to Mila last year in DoA5; when people saw you couldn't mash on Mila, they cried for nerfs just like they recently did with Rachel... for some reason Tekken and VF players can get a grasp of how to fight Rachel, despite being new to the game and it's mechanics (people like Raze, Lyn, and xMAD AXES x) So my ultimate question to the DoA originals, why is (was) it so hard to have to respect frame advantage and not press buttons on negative? Why is it such a struggle to learn the matchups against characters with so many weaknesses? Is it that much of a struggle to play with some common fucking sense?

 

[Nobus3r1]

Maybe TN could have left her at neutral on stomp whiff? This would have forced ppl to study her neutral game more and improve fundamentals as a result.

As already mentioned that would have made too much sense. As it is the move has been, to me, mostly reclassified as a fifth taunt.

What I really found more worrying where the other changes she received (1PP, 214P, 4PP) as those would seem to indicate that the people that TN are listening to are truly abysmal players as there weren't any issues with those moves. If I was hitting someone with 1PP consistently all that told me was that they hadn't researched the character at all. If I was hitting someone with a raw 214P I was trolling, because that moves probably shouldn't be used outside of combos and if it was landing then it indicated that I was correct to troll as whoever I was playing was terrible.

As an extra question to all of you guys that main Rachel, why do you main her?

I tend to play grappler characters and since scrubs got TN to ruin Mila in vanilla DOA5 I needed a new character. It would seem that I am good at picking characters that terrible players dislike strongly.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I use 214P after stomp connects or in neutral if they're being dumb with their spacing 'cause I assume it makes the other guy really mad getting hit by it. "I won't get hit by that dumb, slow, heavily telegraphed strike next time!" Walk up 41236T. It's the best feeling.

 

[Nobus3r1]

I'm thinking of using 4T to punish holds. 41236T is pretty much done for me, slower speed, slower execution, damage is even or worse to 4T on Hi-C. The only reason to use it before was Blender + 25 damage and that's all over now.

If we're talking strictly about damage then this isn't quit accurate. A full follow-up to 41236T will only do less damage than 4T on counter or hi-counter vs. super heavyweights (i.e. when you use 9P T... instead of 6PP T...).

(ed. when using 3PPP+KT, the damage is pretty rad, but this move has hella wall carry, and, well... when you use it near a wall, either P+K will splat, or you'll jump up in the air and then land in a totally %^&*ed position. I'm starting to think you either 3P launch and then airthrow combo, and only 3PPP+KT in the open where you have space.)

While Viper Twist looks really cool I'm not sure how viable it is. As you've already mentioned it has an annoying habbit of wall splatting fools and in most circumstances where I need a follow-up I'm finding that 6PKP does more damage; e.g. 4PPP 66P 214P 6PP/9P T 6PKP > 4PPP 66P 3PPP+KT.

 

[Drake Aldan]

If we're talking strictly about damage then this isn't quit accurate. A full follow-up to 41236T will only do less damage than 4T on counter or hi-counter vs. super heavyweights (i.e. when you use 9P T... instead of 6PP T...).

Yeah. I mean if we're being technical... It's negligible to me.

41236T has a LOT more range than 4T though. And sometimes it just comes out, too. Muscle memory...

While Viper Twist looks really cool I'm not sure how viable it is. As you've already mentioned it has an annoying habbit of wall splatting fools and in most circumstances where I need a follow-up I'm finding that 6PKP does more damage; e.g. 4PPP 66P 214P 6PP/9P T 6PKP > 4PPP 66P 3PPP+KT.

Yikes, I would never use it after CB!

I pretty much only use it after double 3P launch or 3P threshold break. CH 3P, 3PPP+KT does a little more damage than CH 3P, 3P, airthrow IIRC.

But yeah, style points too. It's legitimizing, like look at me, I'm a Rachel pro. I'm like... daebak, son, I'm so gosu.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Hey hey hey. Check this out right?

OK. You know how 9K on NH can go into stomp, right? And if they back tech you're -2 or -1.

If 9K lands CH and they back tech you're +0! (Gen Fu and higher.)

If 9K lands CH on Helena or lower, stomp is guaranteed!


... but FT whiffs.

#&%@


Anyway, not a bad frame trap vs heavies, I suppose.


Also! Airthrow, 9P, stomp whiff doesn't always equal -3! That's only against super heavyweights. Against lightweights it's -1! (i.e. variable, Gen Fu to middleweight is -2, welterweights are -1. Alpha is +0 because why not.)

You can really see that... TN saw either TFC vids or something of that nature, and because 9P was the tech being used at the time (instead of 6PK or 3PP) the rebalancing was based entirely off of that. That's why 2K has slow startup speed and recovery speed now- because they were only looking at that one situation.

I personally blame our tournament elites who don't read forums for new tech.

 

[just_me]

That's nothing new, is it?

Also... are you sure CH is 0 vs Heavy and above? I know the tool displays +0, but when I tried Rachel's Jab constantly beats Gen Fu's and the s trade (and Data claims it's 11(1)0 for Fu and 13(1)0 for Rachel, seems both Hit during the first active Frame... so no Hitbox issues), I'd say it's +2 (should be the best you can get vs. non-Alphas)
And vs Super Heavy I'd say it's +1... her Jab beat's other 11 Frame Jabs and her other 13F mids.

edit: you certainly do have advantage vs Alpha after the Standard ~ Stomp setup... Rachels beats Alpha's

 

[Drake Aldan]

That's nothing new, is it?

hrm... Probably not to you, now that I think about it. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[CFW]

Well thanks to DrakeAldan for mentioning that Rachel is playable in the tutorial mode.
Using her feels good, like how Pyrrha or Anna feels for me.

Not forced at all like Helena.

 

[Drake Aldan]

So how are we supposed to use 3T? I wanna hit people with dat ass.

I don't ever seem to have the chance though. I tried to use it against Christie but I could never predict the JAK.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I used it a bit on people who like to do low jabs to beat high pressure. But, you know, I could have just blocked and punished with a throw.

 

[Viper Excess]

Low OH is basically used like a low crush. Anticipate somebody who will duck in some form (high crush standing attack, high crush low attack, freezing on low block, keeping a low profile i.e. BKO ducking) and you shall (sometimes) be successful. She doesn't have many crush attacks, so it is good for her but of course do NOT whiff. You will hate her ass if you whiff.

You CAN block and punish things, but not everyone has a low OH, and sometimes you just want to shut down an annoying (crush) situation so that the opponent hesitates on it next time (which is better for Rachel).