System I don't think I understand this game.

[Tenryuga]

See, now this is why y'all need to play more fighting games. Generally speaking, the best characters to use to teach newer players to win actually are high tier or top tier characters. Ryu? Ryu's been generally high or top tier in most SFs (hello 9:1 matchups in ST). In games where he isn't there were usually better fundamental characterts (Chun or Ken in 3S, Fei Long in AE2012) Team Scrub in MvC2 (Sent/Cable/CapCom) not only taught you fundamentals, but it was one of the best teams in the game.

More importantly, these characters are usually top tier because they emphasize and excel at whatever it is that defines the meta-game of whatever game they're in. For example, Marvel has always been about being able to confirm random stray hits into damage. This is why you'd rather have someone new learn Magneto or Vergil, because they excel at that. Having them use someone like say Spiderman or anyone else who's more dependent on certain specific setups to get kill combos isn't doing them any favors. Same way that Injustice has a heavy zoning component, which is why someone like Superman or Aquaman is a better choice than Harley or Joker . Making a new player pick one of the latter will end up only teaching them the specific gimmicks that those characters need to win.

I do play other fighters just I was too young or too busy to get competitive until DOA5 came out. If you play Blazblue or Guilty Gear or Skullgirls we should run a few sets sometime because those are games I want to get good at but suck in. And we are on the same page sir. I didn't say you should avoid top tier characters and that they don't teach you the fundamentals you need to win. Jin in Blazblue Calamity Trigger was top tier and he was one of the recommended characters for people just picking it up. I just put it out there that some Top / High tier characters allow you to win but don't teach you the right fundamentals or all of them. This ends up screwing you over if you go up against players who are more fundamentally solid than you or stronger than you in the areas you blow in because the character you chose didn't allow you to develop them.

Take Alpha-152. People consider her enough of a threat and a easy win character that they wanted to ban her at some point yet what skills does she teach other than free cancelling alot and pressing alot of buttons? These are habits that can end up backfiring on you in DOA yet for her they are strong enough that you don't need to have a good or high level of proficiency in other areas of the game like environmental awareness or space control. Someone who is adept at those things will eat Alpha players alive because as you state the characters they may have chosen excel in what defines the meta-game whether they are easy or hard to win with / play.

 

[Brute]

not tier whore. work with what you like best and be as good as you can with it

There, d3v. & don't tell me that Hajin is a scrub because that would be so fucking stupid I can't even...

 

[StrikerSashi]

Don't bother arguing with d3v. He's known more for mod abuse than being knowledgeable.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

For the record, this thread has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. What happened to Glortor lol?

 

[David Gregg]

I think everyone's right actually. Everyone has their reasons for picking a certain character (go over and read "How did you find your main?" thread to see just how different the responses are). Whether it be b/c they've been labeled "top tier", have an appealing fighting style, etc...it really doesn't matter what your intentions are for playing them just as long as you're enjoying the game.

 

[d3v]

For the record, this thread has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. What happened to Glortor lol?

Depends, character selection is still part of how you approach a game. Knowing how to pick a character is still better than going in and picking someone blind.

I think everyone's right actually. Everyone has their reasons for picking a certain character (go over and read "How did you find your main?" thread to see just how different the responses are). Whether it be b/c they've been labeled "top tier", have an appealing fighting style, etc...it really doesn't matter what your intentions are for playing them just as long as you're enjoying the game.

As the old saying goes "pick who you want, but play to win."

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Yeah, but the OP never actually said what character he's playing, lol. This thread kind of got taken over by, well, everyone else.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I've seen him in the Leifang subsection so that's what I assumed.

 

[deathofaninja]

Take Alpha-152. People consider her enough of a threat and a easy win character that they wanted to ban her at some point yet what skills does she teach other than free cancelling a lot and pressing a lot of buttons? These are habits that can end up backfiring on you in DOA yet for her they are strong enough that you don't need to have a good or high level of proficiency in other areas of the game like environmental awareness or space control. Someone who is adept at those things will eat Alpha players alive because as you state the characters they may have chosen excel in what defines the meta-game whether they are easy or hard to win with / play.

Alpha players should be very well aware of environments, and it is much more dangerous to be near a wall. On the flip-side her parry will put her at a distinct advantage and is her only escape from the wall. She also has a plethora of great wall combos that have great damage output. And why wouldn't they need to be aware? I find the environment as important for an Alpha player as I do any other character. You are also required to space out your opponent to trap your opponents in her incredibly unique OH moves. I've learned a lot from Alpha.

If you have no clue what you are doing in DOA's environment, you are fucked from the start. She also teaches Dead or Alive players not to rely on wake-up attacks.

I mash P with a badge of honor properly timing each jab while looking for an environmental advantage so I can mash P even more.

 

[StrikerSashi]

You should really stop using the word "mash" like that. It's hardly mashing if you're delaying and choosing when to use each individual attack.

 

[Awesmic]

Back in my day, this was the only meaning of the word "mash"

Let's keep it that way...

 

[SweetRevenge117]

Idk striker alpha and mash go hand and hand

 

[Argentus]

Okay im gonna be simple in my response here.

Brute is right, too many people just want their character to win for them.

D3v, pointing out the above fact does not make a "scrubby mentality".

Robojo is right in that the fgc wants it recognized as a sport, but doesnt want to actually do anything that would GET it recognized as a sport. Sportmanship. Effort. Etc. This goes back to how brute was pointing that most players just want an easy win with minimal effort. That's not sport worthy, thats laziness.


Hajinshinobi is right in that some people use high tiers but do not care about the fact. Like in BB, i got it to play as makoto because she looks cool, only later did I find out she was broken, and i didnt care, was still using her. Same with Mila in vanilla. Kept using her after every patch nerfed her tackle. In SF4, I use guile because I find him crazy awesome. Only later found out he's considered good.

 

[d3v]

I don't want to get in the middle of this argument because I really, really don't care about this topic. Only this quoted part caught my eye and is making me respond. Firstly, I'm seriously hoping you're joking about it being physically exhausting. However, mental exhaustion is a real thing when playing games requiring concentration, making quick decisions and adapting to an opponent's decisions. It's still not that big a problem because mental endurance can be trained, minimizing or even negating this issue. The problem is that most people are too lazy to train barring a few exceptions.

The only reason that this bothers me is that so many FGC players are begging for fighting games to be recognized as a sport, but refuse to put in any physical labour like any real athlete. Mental exhaustion is the only real, physical thing video games have to be able to be called a sport rather than a game and instead of overcoming it, so many players just whine. Train your body and mind because mental or physical exhaustion is NOT an excuse in competition and should not be a factor in the first place if you've trained hard enough.

I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Not kidding about the physical part. I've seen players nearly collapse in exhaustion during tournaments. Sure it isn't as exhausting as say, a pickup game of basketball, but these things do take a physical toll on you.

This is why alot of sponsored players actually do physically prepare themselves - getting enough sleep the night before, eating right, etc. Heck, I know some sponsors actually require it (I believe Complexity does since FChamp was the one who told me about all this).

Okay im gonna be simple in my response here.

Brute is right, too many people just want their character to win for them.

D3v, pointing out the above fact does not make a "scrubby mentality".

Robojo is right in that the fgc wants it recognized as a sport, but doesnt want to actually do anything that would GET it recognized as a sport. Sportmanship. Effort. Etc. This goes back to how brute was pointing that most players just want an easy win with minimal effort. That's not sport worthy, thats laziness.

You sir have a very naive view of sports. Especially considering how much alot of pro athletes and teams are willing to do just to give them an edge against their opponents. I mean, look at Lebron and the Heat. You think that if he put in the same amount of effort, he'd win two championship rings in a row if he stayed in Charlotte? Of course not, moving to Miami to play with DWade and Bosch. Same thing with the classic 90's Bulls. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 rings (2 three-peats) if not for the fact that they built one of the strongest teams around him.

There's too much emphasis on just pure "effort" when a good part of winning in any sort of sport or competition is actually about being smart and making smart choices. Effort is meaningless on it's own. The only thing that gives effort meaning are those smart choices that direct that effort. Character selection is simply one of those places where you can make that smart choice (or not).

 

[deathofaninja]

You should really stop using the word "mash" like that. It's hardly mashing if you're delaying and choosing when to use each individual attack.

I've learned to accept what people say about me...

 

[Awesmic]

I've learned to accept what people say about me...

If I had done that, I'd have left the community years ago.

 

[Chapstick]

Alpha players should be very well aware of environments, and it is much more dangerous to be near a wall. On the flip-side her parry will put her at a distinct advantage and is her only escape from the wall. She also has a plethora of great wall combos that have great damage output. And why wouldn't they need to be aware? I find the environment as important for an Alpha player as I do any other character. You are also required to space out your opponent to trap your opponents in her incredibly unique OH moves. I've learned a lot from Alpha.

If you have no clue what you are doing in DOA's environment, you are fucked from the start. She also teaches Dead or Alive players not to rely on wake-up attacks.

I mash P with a badge of honor properly timing each jab while looking for an environmental advantage so I can mash P even more.

I keep finding Alphas online that pick dojo to avoid getting stuck at walls. e~e Little bastards.

 

[grap3fruitman]

So I can see the OP's frustration but I don't know how to help or that I can provide any assistance. I think enough of you are just so used to playing this game that you don't think much of its quirks. DOA is definitely weird and inconsistent. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ragging on the game but I don't mean to. One of the reasons I pick up VF5FS and like it so much in comparison is because that game feels more consistent. It's hard to explain.

Back in my day, this was the only meaning of the word "mash"
Let's keep it that way...

So when were mashed potatoes invented?

 

[Awesmic]

So when were mashed potatoes invented?

Around the same time period Mash Figaro existed.

 

[Argentus]

Not kidding about the physical part. I've seen players nearly collapse in exhaustion during tournaments. Sure it isn't as exhausting as say, a pickup game of basketball, but these things do take a physical toll on you.

This is why alot of sponsored players actually do physically prepare themselves - getting enough sleep the night before, eating right, etc. Heck, I know some sponsors actually require it (I believe Complexity does since FChamp was the one who told me about all this).


You sir have a very naive view of sports. Especially considering how much alot of pro athletes and teams are willing to do just to give them an edge against their opponents. I mean, look at Lebron and the Heat. You think that if he put in the same amount of effort, he'd win two championship rings in a row if he stayed in Charlotte? Of course not, moving to Miami to play with DWade and Bosch. Same thing with the classic 90's Bulls. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 rings (2 three-peats) if not for the fact that they built one of the strongest teams around him.

There's too much emphasis on just pure "effort" when a good part of winning in any sort of sport or competition is actually about being smart and making smart choices. Effort is meaningless on it's own. The only thing that gives effort meaning are those smart choices that direct that effort. Character selection is simply one of those places where you can make that smart choice (or not).

My point is more this.

If someone wins with a low tier character, the win is mostly credited to the player.
But if someone wins with a high tier.character, the win is mostly credited to the character, not the player.

Like in mvc. Someone wins with stormsentwhatever, people its just chalked up to "well they picked those characrers, what do yku expect".


Generally speaking, of course.