Her heavyweight juggles are actually pretty good. Not much modification required from her normal middleweight ones.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
lol
You can just watch what other Fang's do to juggle you. Almost always it's a high or mid kick, followed by her double refloat kicks (9KK), and then she finishes with options depending on the threshold and weight class. KH+K gets a hard knockdown and works on heavyweights even at minimum threshold. She can net a little more with deep stuns and the like, but that simplicity is good and there.
Other characters have to change it up a bunch depending on what launch they use, what threshold, what weight, what environment, etc. and it can really change their tactics and strategies. Lei Fang is fairly consistent.
I do think Leifang vs Bass is definitely in her favor, but it's kind of annoying to play against. If you don't scare them enough with your strikes, Bass will just walk up and throw your parry/OH/DH for like half the bar.
Koompbala
Well-Known Member
For CQC she has no real quick and safe mid kick option outside of(H/M i12/i16 ends -6) which won't help vs. grapplers.
I dont know crap about Momiji not even when it comes to my own character fighting her. But I seen the word grapplers which caught my attention. -6 is still safe against grapplers unless your talking about neutral grabbing but then again anyone can 5T -6. Grapplers can punish -7 and up.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
Definitely agree with everything said about Bass vs Fang matchup. 4-6, maybe worse imo. Just to add something Mr. Wah said in the matchups thread (and which i find to be totally true), Leifang makes two of Bass' best pokes, 6K and 3K, a liability. This sucks because 6K is his fastest mid and 3K is his best long range tool. Hate this matchup.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Regarding Christie, is there any character that actually has a favorable matchup against her?
Saber
Well-Known Member
IIRC, Ayane, Helena, possibly Hitomi and Sarah.
Juihau
Well-Known Member
I'd imagine it's due to Hitomi having a number of strings that end in a tracking low, as well as a tracking high crush that also has a tracking low followup. There's also her 4PPP, which starts with a tracking mid that stuns on NH, is ridiculously delay-able, and the last P can be charged to leave her safe on block. At the very least, I can't really imagine that MU being tipped very heavily in Christie's favor.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Characters that are in Christie's disfavor is Genfu, Ayane and Sarah. (I think Kasumi vs Christie is 5-5). Hitomi can give Christie a tough time though because Hitomi has god knows how many strings that end with a low sweep. The only thing Christie can relay on against Hitomi is her speed and mix ups. She can use the jak but its pointless depending when she uses it. Also Hitomi has a parry but I don't think that puts her anywhere above Christie. Its probably 6-4 Christie or maybe even a 5-5.
Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
Why does Helena have a favorable MU?
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
From my sight:
Ayane vs Christie 6-4, only a blind man would here go for a 5-5.
i am not sure about Brad Wong i talked with Awesmic for a few days and his points makes sense for a 6-4 for Brad against her.
Gen Fu, Sarah, Helena, Hitomi all 5-5 vs Christie.
And shocki i told you always the stance is timing based, its not like just using stance and its all in butter. Lol play vs Bass you try to sidestep and he rolls over you with 1pp and you lying on the ground.
Last edited:
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
So Christie has only one, maybe two bad matchups? Sheesh.
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
How much bad Match ups had Gen Fu or Sarah? Zero...
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Ok Rachel being E tier has been irking me for too long. here's some Rachel MU opinions:
Bass: Rachel is a fast character ONLY when compared to the other heavyweights. Against Bass she pretty much has the speed advantage. Juggle wise these 2 don't complete own the other because they can barely be juggled. I would count Rachel's command sidestep but hers really isn't any different from the universal sidestep because she isn't put into a lower position (like Christie's jak or Bayman's tank roll) it probably just takes her further than the normal sidestep. I believe Rachel crushes more than Bass and of course she is faster. With mix ups she is kinda like Ein and Tina, most mix ups are string based and can't go in and out of stances. Spacing, I think Bass is better in spacing because Rachel can't space for her life. But up close I think Rachel gets it. She is faster and has a lot of 6o frame stuns. So its probably 6-4 Rachel
Ein: Ein can space her out extremely easy. But up close Rachel might take it. She has more GBs and her OH is better imo. Her throws (41236T to be very specific) can really help her take control of the match because her throws either do good damage or give her juggle opportunities. Ein is unsafe at some points and Rachel's 4T and 6T are good for punishing, also her low OH can shut down his sweep opportunities. Juggle damage I think its in Rachel's favor but Im sure Ein can dish out good juggles (please correct me if Im wrong). Ein is also a bit linear so Rachel may be able to use her command step, not to abuse it and be an ass like Christie can, but to use the punch that can launch on CH or HiC or use the high crushing kick. The 2 moves out of Rachel's command step are better than her regular sidestep. 6-4 Rachel imo.
Tina: This. These 2 imo seem to be extremely similar. Good throws, slow, and poor mix up ability compared to the others. I do think Tina is maybe a bit faster. But Tina gets a lot of disadvantage all the time. Even after a GB she is still at disadvantage (her 2h+k). Rachel's GBs don't put her in disadvantage (I can't give numbers because I haven't checked into her frame datat). Tina doesn't have a trouble juggling Rachel because Tina has a universal juggle that works on all weights. I do think Tina gets better combo damage but since Rachel is heavy Tina only has that one juggle and it doesn't do much as the others. Tina does have more OHs and better throws. But Rachel GBs a lot so Tina won't be able to punish much unless she can bait holds or punish very unsafe moves that don't GB. Even when fighting each other, they seem like their MU is 5-5. So I think its a 5-5.
- Here's a fight if you want to see how they can balance each other out.
Christie: Ok. Christie dominates the neutral game because she is faster of course. But I have actually tried this (strict timing is heavily needed) Rachel's low OH, 3T, can really limit Christie's jak. And to avoid whiffing and being very exposed, she can just 1p the jak and mess up Christie's jaking game. Rachel has the better holds and throws. Christie has great mid kicks and mid punches that she can use. Rachel's mid kick hold gives her a great launch and juggle opportunity, Rachel's jumping mid punch and mid kick hold also gives juggle chances. Christie has her jumping mid punches and jumping mid kicks and Rachel can use her holds against them. But, Christie's jak can really tear Rachel up. Rachel has many different hit levels after her PP. PPP, PPK, PP4P, PPT (OH) PP2K. The jak evades all of those I think her pp4p tracks but it doesn't matter because if Christie dodges the PP her last punch isn't hitting her because Christie is already attacking. That reason alone can put the match straight in Christie's favor. 6-4 Christie.
Bass: Rachel is a fast character ONLY when compared to the other heavyweights. Against Bass she pretty much has the speed advantage. Juggle wise these 2 don't complete own the other because they can barely be juggled. I would count Rachel's command sidestep but hers really isn't any different from the universal sidestep because she isn't put into a lower position (like Christie's jak or Bayman's tank roll) it probably just takes her further than the normal sidestep. I believe Rachel crushes more than Bass and of course she is faster. With mix ups she is kinda like Ein and Tina, most mix ups are string based and can't go in and out of stances. Spacing, I think Bass is better in spacing because Rachel can't space for her life. But up close I think Rachel gets it. She is faster and has a lot of 6o frame stuns. So its probably 6-4 Rachel
Ein: Ein can space her out extremely easy. But up close Rachel might take it. She has more GBs and her OH is better imo. Her throws (41236T to be very specific) can really help her take control of the match because her throws either do good damage or give her juggle opportunities. Ein is unsafe at some points and Rachel's 4T and 6T are good for punishing, also her low OH can shut down his sweep opportunities. Juggle damage I think its in Rachel's favor but Im sure Ein can dish out good juggles (please correct me if Im wrong). Ein is also a bit linear so Rachel may be able to use her command step, not to abuse it and be an ass like Christie can, but to use the punch that can launch on CH or HiC or use the high crushing kick. The 2 moves out of Rachel's command step are better than her regular sidestep. 6-4 Rachel imo.
Tina: This. These 2 imo seem to be extremely similar. Good throws, slow, and poor mix up ability compared to the others. I do think Tina is maybe a bit faster. But Tina gets a lot of disadvantage all the time. Even after a GB she is still at disadvantage (her 2h+k). Rachel's GBs don't put her in disadvantage (I can't give numbers because I haven't checked into her frame datat). Tina doesn't have a trouble juggling Rachel because Tina has a universal juggle that works on all weights. I do think Tina gets better combo damage but since Rachel is heavy Tina only has that one juggle and it doesn't do much as the others. Tina does have more OHs and better throws. But Rachel GBs a lot so Tina won't be able to punish much unless she can bait holds or punish very unsafe moves that don't GB. Even when fighting each other, they seem like their MU is 5-5. So I think its a 5-5.
Christie: Ok. Christie dominates the neutral game because she is faster of course. But I have actually tried this (strict timing is heavily needed) Rachel's low OH, 3T, can really limit Christie's jak. And to avoid whiffing and being very exposed, she can just 1p the jak and mess up Christie's jaking game. Rachel has the better holds and throws. Christie has great mid kicks and mid punches that she can use. Rachel's mid kick hold gives her a great launch and juggle opportunity, Rachel's jumping mid punch and mid kick hold also gives juggle chances. Christie has her jumping mid punches and jumping mid kicks and Rachel can use her holds against them. But, Christie's jak can really tear Rachel up. Rachel has many different hit levels after her PP. PPP, PPK, PP4P, PPT (OH) PP2K. The jak evades all of those I think her pp4p tracks but it doesn't matter because if Christie dodges the PP her last punch isn't hitting her because Christie is already attacking. That reason alone can put the match straight in Christie's favor. 6-4 Christie.
Last edited:
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I don't think the Rachel MU is in her favor vs Ein because while she is better than him up close she is no nightmare for him handle like some other characters in close range. The one thing that's a bitch to deal with is the mixup after getting stomped. Up close Ein is slightly faster than her due to his jab being 10i and Rachel has to respect the +1 I pick up from 2P. I dominate in space easily and make it difficult for her to come in.
If this was release date 5U Rachel I would have definitely said this was a 6-4 in her favor no argument about it. Since she's been significantly toned down however this match is very much winnable for Ein IMO. 5-5.
If this was release date 5U Rachel I would have definitely said this was a 6-4 in her favor no argument about it. Since she's been significantly toned down however this match is very much winnable for Ein IMO. 5-5.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Maybe you are right. Its probably a 5-5. Rachel can't come in on anyone easily and someone like Ein who is a good spacer can make it hard. And Rachel can really give Ein a tough time up close. It probably is a 5-5.
Mr. Wah is probably the best Bass player around and he's stated that this MU is in favor of Bass.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Leifang has more to lose while using her parries than Bass has when getting parried. A parry will give her what exactly..? Her unshu will give her a deep stun, which is the same for everyone, and her mid parry will give her 9KK 46P for free, just like against everyone. There is no additional disadvantage for Bass here, especially when he's heavier. There is however, a bigger disadvantage for Leifang for using them. If Bass grabs one of those parries, it's bye bye half health. Yeah, we do know Leifang can parry everything. But it's a huge risk to parry against Bass, more so than against anyone else in the game, except maybe Tina and Bayman. Without her defensive tools, Leifang is pretty garbage. Combine that with her crappy offense, and we have a stale mate. (In B4 'she doesn't have crappy offense').
The examples you gave aren't exactly convincing. Here's one.
"she can parry on Bass' backturning throw combos (parry while back turned)"
Leifang can parry Bass when BT, but Bass can also grab or OH her. And why would you use that grab out of the huge list of grabs in the first place, if you know she can do that? It's a 50/50 guess anyway. Bass gets more grab damage than Leifang gets for parry damage. No advantage for Leifang here.
Explain to me why she doesn't need to break defenses. What exactly can she do to just chill? What are these godly moves that Leifang has that leaves bass at such a huge disadvantage? If Bass just stands there and blocks, waiting for an unshu or a chance to grab, Leifang can't do much. Her attacks are not gonna get her anywhere, unless the Bass player makes a mistake. She needs to use either grabs or OHs to get anything respectable by chipping away damage. With his neutral 4 frame grab, he can punish unshu every single time if he pays attention. She relies on counter hits to get anything going, and if the Bass player barely attacks, she's simply standing against a big rock. If you're trying to spam attacks with Bass you're doing it wrong. Just because the Bass player can't attack like he's playing with Christie, doesn't mean that it's a very bad matchup for him.
Bass needs to be careful while attacking, but Leifang needs to be very careful when using her best tools. It's not an advantage for him, but the advantage Leifang has is not as big as people say it is. I invite any good Leifang player to play any good Bass player, to see of you'd just chill.
Last edited: